Quotes from Narcissistic Mothers (& support for their victims) Thread 3

[01Name]

Following on from this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4610023-to-ask-for-your-quotes-from-narcissistic-mothers?page=39&reply=120137262, started by @itsgoodtobehome as a tongue-in-cheek repository for anecdotes of appalling remarks/deeds from parents/siblings with rampant NPD. It morphed into a place where those of us suffering the effects of such behaviour could share experiences, solidarity, advice and support. It continued to a second thread here: Quotes from Narcissistic Mothers (& support for their victims) Thread 2 | Mumsnet I hope this thread can continue the good work of its predecessors. Your voice will be heard; your opinion and thoughts matter. You are welcome and valued here. The world is a better place with you in it, despite what you might have been conditioned to believe by those who brought you into it. x

Looking back, I think it was general knowledge at school that my mum was quite a scary individual, and among teachers that she was a difficult character, one of ‘those’ parents. But nobody ever said ‘your mum’s behaviour towards you isn’t right’ until I had my first counselling sessions at uni at about 19 or 20. It was really eye-opening and validating, but I do wish someone, a teacher or someone at school, had raised concerns about us sooner. Our next-door neighbours must also have heard her but never said anything.

It’s also really confusing that our parents spent so much money on us (in relative terms, so much of what they had), on holidays and presents and days out etc, but it was all against a backdrop of essentially emotional abuse. Memories of those days out are always overridden by the memories of my mum storming off in a mood and us trailing after her in silence, the holidays where she gave us the silent treatment for days on end, yet they’d persist in taking us out to attractions or cafes etc, ‘happy’/treat places yet with this horrendous atmosphere hanging over us. I know we were lucky to be taken to these places, but I’d much rather have had emotionally supportive parents than the days out and holidays.

I suppose it’s a bit of a classic ‘but we took you to stately homes’ thing, like the old MN threads.

@RenewableNewt I certainly recognise so much in your post. My DD, who is a teacher said that so many things I’ve told her would today have raised a huge red child protection flag but when I grew up the 60s, I think people looked away and didn’t want to get involved. There was one occasion that happened when I must have been around 5/6 but I still remember it so clearly. I was getting a very public walloping, which was unusual as NM was normally very careful to do it behind closed doors. A complete stranger shouted, “Leave her alone you spiteful cow!”
NM screamed back at her to mind her own business, and unfortunately she did.

NM would occasionally make very grand financial gestures and buy me a really expensive toy, outfit or book - and not something I would have chosen either - and there was always strings attached. I was expected to be grovelingly grateful. A thank you wasn’t enough. She would give it to me and say odd things like, “You see, I’m not that bad am I?” “You only love me because I buy you nice things” “If you don’t behave, I’m taking the toy away and giving it to another child who appreciates it more” and I was expected to kiss and cuddle her in gratitude, again with the threat of its removal if I didn’t oblige.

This sort of manipulation went in into my adulthood, but once I was financially independent, it was very empowering to say no thanks, I don’t need XYZ or I’ll buy it myself when I’m ready, thanks. She found that very hard to deal with and I was then called ungrateful.

@WaggledMyAerialAndWolfedMyCustardCreams I never told anyone outside the family home either. I don’t remember being explicitly told not to, but in a way I was conditioned to see it as ‘normal’, I suppose? Even though I knew it was really unpleasant to live with, it was what I was used to, and I certainly didn’t recognise it as abusive behaviour until I was into my 20s, even after I started counselling.

I remember doing safeguarding training as a PGCE student and sitting in a hall looking up at a screen, on which were bullet points in black and white of what my DM had done to me, under the heading ‘Emotional Abuse’. That was a real shock to the system and turning point for me.

I think my extended family recognised that DM could be very difficult. She didn’t get on with her FIL (my grandad) or her own mum. In spite of that, I remember telling my gran (DM’s DM) about what it had been like for us growing up, and she was horrified. She said she’d always thought we were the perfect family unit.

A few years later, my gran asked if everything was sorted and better now. I remember just saying ‘yes’, because I didn’t want to cause any more hurt, but it wasn’t better because the damage had already been done, over years and years and years, and it was extensive emotional damage to me and my sibling. But I said ‘yes’ it was all fixed, because I didn’t want to upset her any more with the effects of her daughter’s behaviour towards us.

I think it must be so hard to process that your child could behave in this way towards her own children.

My DM had to have every occasion about her even funerals. She was insufferable.

Even though it was back in the day it is outrageous that none of this was picked up for any of us. I was sensitive, hyper vigilant, too good, too quiet and I would shake with nerves if I thought I was in any kind of trouble.

But the school did nothing and my own family (apart from one uncle) didn't either. That's the bit I just cannot reconcile. Along with the expectation that I was expected to mourn her. I've got so close to wanting to say something to them about it but what is the point?

We all suffered an injustice.

@user1471538283 I so recognise your description. ‘Even though it was back in the day it is outrageous that none of this was picked up for any of us. I was sensitive, hyper vigilant, too good, too quiet and I would shake with nerves if I thought I was in any kind of trouble.’ This was me to a tee as well, and still is to a degree, even after several years of counselling.

I started secondary school in 2005, so not all that long ago. I’m really glad so much has changed in safeguarding, in terms of emotional abuse being on people’s radars. It can still be so so difficult to spot, though.

Writing out the ‘a’ word, it reminds me of my mum joking that her godson/friend’s son would ‘abuse’ her 🤔 she meant that he teased her verbally, but her use of the word ‘abuse’ stood out to me even then as wrong, especially as she was joking about it and honestly she seemed to be enjoying the male attention, even though he was so much younger than her. Just many shades of yuck, to be honest.

I think it sort of points to her not taking the term ‘abuse’ seriously and probably not seeing her behaviour towards us as abusive either, if she understood the word to mean some teasing and joking.

It’s taken me a long time to really come to terms with it as having been abusive. And I’m not sure I’m really at peace with that yet, especially because I have to keep seeing her every few weeks, and it sort of reopens all that old pain and the healing I’ve tried to do. It’s really complicated, isn’t it?

@RenewableNewt - my DM wouldn't have accepted what she did as abuse either. She was quick enough when she thought people were taking advantage of her. Ever so sensitive when it was her.

It is complicated. But they just won't see it. Whenever I picked my DM up on something she would deny it or scream. Then she was upset. Like your DM she was ridiculous around men. It used to turn my stomach. Then of course she would be angry because of course they weren't interested.

It's the cruelty I don't get. I wouldn't treat a stranger like that.

Like you I'm still trying to pick my way through it.

Oooh, the other men thing, I can relate to that and it makes me sick. My mother would always flirt with men, it was so embarrassing but also very confusing as a child. I remember a neighbour of ours lost his wife young and they had two young kids, I asked my father one day where my mother was and he said, “she’s over with her boyfriend X, why don’t you go over and find her”, I just remember the confusion of the situation but also knowing, even at the age of 7/8 that my dad shouldn’t be saying those things to me. I always felt like she would leave me/us, no wonder I have abandonment issues, they make me sick the two of them. Also, she would always say that this man complimented her and said she was gorgeous or her eyes/hair was beautiful with a demented giggle. She always needed validation from men or people she deemed to be better, aka wealthier people or people like doctors etc mortifying and damaging behaviour. Thank Christ I’ve seen their madness and my interactions with them is so limited, hopefully one day I won’t speak to them at all.

Yes I was so quiet at primary school and very frightened of the teachers. My mother used to scream in rage when I got a poor mark at maths - I was excellent at e

I was good at very other subject but struggled with arithmetic. She ignored the good marks I got in other subjects but went into a rage at my poor maths marks. There was no school counsellor to go to about my mother screaming at me about maths! I was too in awe of the teachers to talk to them.

I'm still terrified of anything to do with arithmetic! I look back and I'm sure my poor marks were made much worse by how terrified I was every time I sat an exam, that I would do poorly and my mother would be in a rage again.

I do look back and wonder why there was no counselling available for kids in the 60s and 70s when I was at school. There was no safe place for a kid to go to.
There must have been plenty of kids with problems who had nowhere to go for help,

Yes exactly the same! Outwardly my mother was calm and pleasant. None of the neighbours knew the screaming abuse that went on indoors. There was no counselling at the schools. I am still friends with an elderly - now 95 year old - neighbour from those times and she said my mother always came across pleasant but reserved and her daughter was never allowed over to play with me. I never knew her daughter had wanted to play with me!

Indoors there was nothing but abuse and screaming rage. Neither of my brothers are OK and both have lousy self esteem despite having excellent careers.

I still wonder why on earth you would bring kids up like that though!

I've only just found this thread, and so much of what has been said resonates. Like so many other posters, I was a very quiet well behaved child at school. Never dared cause trouble. Terrified of putting a foot wrong. So I never dared speak to teachers, was scared of voicing my thoughts and opinions to friends. Nothing I ever did was good enough, and if I did well at anything, my NM would laugh and sneer at me. for example, when I got much better than expected A-level results in Biology and Sociology, my Mum did a nasty take on the which was airing at the time. She would say "Oooo, you got an 'Ology, and you think you are someone hahahaha." (NM never got to that level of education). I've spent so many years never wanting to get above my station, classic people pleaser, never wanting to rock the boat, always feeling that I'm never good enough. Luckily I have been working on this with a therapist and also a raft of self-help books!

I keep wondering where the fathers are in all this.

I look back now and realise that my mother was the boss and my father did whatever he could to placate her. He backed her when she was in a rage and even encouraged it at times. Maybe when she was angry with one of us kids she was leaving him alone. He certainly never seemed to try to stop her. At times he even encouraged her.

I sometimes think that two people got married who should never have had children! I think both of them were quite disturbed. I'm sure my mother needed psychiatric attention. My father was estranged from his father and siblings but did care about his mother.
I do think they both came from dysfunctional families themselves.

Interesting that both myself and my brother never had children. My eldest brother did but he married a bossy woman and he appears unhappy and pretty much ignored by both her and his daughters. His wife certainly rules the household.

What were everyone here fathers like?

My father was a lot older than my NM and was a widower with a 20 year old daughter when they met - who NM excluded as much as possible! My half sister, who never lived with us, hated her too and never forgave her for estranging her father from her.

NM used to tell everyone how vulnerable he was, how he clearly needed her and how grateful he was that she had come into his life and ‘saved’ him.

Sadly, DF was so passive and gave into her completely. I loved him dearly and he used to take me out to visit places together. But once we were home, NM ruled the house and he used to retreat into a book or the TV whilst she rampaged unchecked. I look back and am sad that he very rarely stood up for me and just wanted a quiet life. He used to ask me, “not to upset your mother, you know what she’s like” but I can honestly say, I wasn’t a naughty child, I was too terrified to be. He would often go out and leave me alone with if she was particularly unpleasant- again, I should have been able to rely on him to protect me.

One of my most painful memories though is walking through the front door at about 13 and she grabbed me and attacked me for some imagined misdemeanour I had supposedly done. She grabbed my long hair - and he held me - whilst she cut off a great chunk of my hair. This episode still disturbs me. The fact she planned the assault as she was waiting behind the door and the fact he assisted her. I can never understand why he did this and what sort of power she had over him for him to participate.

Thanks JohnPrescottsPyjamas - sorry I can never find a Reply button here, does Mumsnet have them?

Anyway your story sounds familiar! My father would set me up sometimes - he would find some fault with me and then tell my mother about it, knowing that she would be enraged and take it out on me. I could never understand why he did that.

I can look back and see he did it to "keep in good" with her. Maybe it also deflected her attention from him onto me. I suspect that was behind it too. The story about your father holding you while your mother cut your hair is horrible - poor you. I am sorry, that must have been so distressing for you.

Interesting that my father was much older than my mother and yours was also. I'm not sure what it means but it's interesting.

I think these women had to marry men who were either weak or somehow dependent on them - so they then couldn't or didn't speak up about any of the things the mother did to the kids. My father used to say derogatory things to us kids about ourselves - he would taunt us at times, my brothers more than me - I think that's a sign of lousy self esteem. He had an usuccessful marriage before this one too - his wife had left him for someone else.

The family dynamics become interesting don't they? And we were stuck in the niddle of it!

middle, not niddle sorry!

Good question @Turquioseblue . I've thought about this a lot too. I do get more angry with my NM, but the reality is that my Dad was equally culpable - he just acted differently by enabling by NM, not defending his children and in the vast majority of cases simply turning a blind eye and literally walking away. He provided no emotional support to my NM or to us. He didn't say as many horrible comments as NM - but boy, when he did, they were equally horrible - if not more so.I do think that both my NM and ND were never shown true love or emotional support by their own parents which is why they are the way they are. I feel proud that I am not letting history repeat itself with my DC. So glad I am now NC with them. It was a hard decision, but I feel so much better and free!

My dad never defended me. Even in the most recent argument a few months ago where I went NC it was all about NM. I couldn’t believe the things he said to me - it just wasn’t him at all.

My father used to say "it's just the way your mum is, try not to upset her". Which, as just about anything could potentially upset her was much easier said than done!

I used to entirely blame my mum for my poor upbringing, but I now think my dad standing back and doing nothing, just because it was easier for him, was just as bad. I didn't have any extended family, and no one at school would have believed me. I literally had no one to fight my corner.

I've been reading the "Christmas dilemma -WWYD" thread in AIBU, which is about whether the OP should host what is clearly a toxic parent when none of her 3 siblings will.
I've had to stop reading because the number of "but she's your mum" and "how could you leave an elderly lady on her own" and "but what if it's her last Christmas?" comments are starting to get me down.

I really wish as a society that we could drop this assumption that all mothers are caring and loving and maternal and you must be a terrible person if you don't want to spend time with them. We literally wouldn't say this about any other person.

My DF was my only parent and he did defend me when he knew about it. I think she probably said all sorts to him but he never raised them with me. He really tried to get her help and support (and then that would have helped us) but the majority of her family just refused to believe there was anything wrong with her or her interactions with me. They still don't.

They had verbal fights about her ridiculous behavior and her affairs.

Anything I did I did with my DF or sometimes other family members. Which made her jealous - not of spending time with me but of me being with him. How sick is that? And all the time she was with other men anyway when she could find one. But she could never get enough attention. Other times she wouldn't even link me to him it was always "my husband", "when I was married", "when I divorced" in front of me. Never when I was married to your dad.

I think had it been not so long ago my DF would have left her and taken me with him. I used to wish he would. But I doubt he would have had custody and I'd be in a worse position. My most miserable Christmas (and the only one with just the old bitch) was the only one where my DF went away for a break from the madness the Christmas before they divorced.

@PurpleBubble - We all get this a lot though don't we? "You've only got one mother", "she's your mother". On and on. From people with decent mothers.

Well yes unfortunately you only get one mother and these are our mothers and we will manage the relationships or not how we sit fit.

So many sit in judgement though about my decision making processes but they weren't there so how would they know? Why is it okay for us to put up with it? They wouldn't!

We can all be tolerate and lovey when we haven't been abused for decades.

I'm very angry about it all today, for me and for all of us.

The only thing I can hug to myself and I hope you all can to is - they thought they were so special and unique and they weren't! They are exactly like each other! Nothing special at all!