Trauma or Autism or neither.

[StrugglesSadness]

Firstly, I apologize for the length.

My son first started displaying worrying behaviour when he was 1.5. Flying into a rage & not being able to calm down for hours & hours. By 3, I asked for help, I did parenting courses & learned he suffers from anxiety.

Sister born.

Age 4 me & his dad split up. He was was still around a lot, we still had family days out. My son witnessed some shouting between us. It wasn't all harmonious.

By the age of 6 the behaviour had turned violent towards myself. I'm walking on eggshells. Anything sets him off. A Caff was opened. Anxiety was noted. Advice like 'Just walk away' leading me to wander around the house carrying my 2 year old, for hours. Exhausting myself & being attacked constantly from behind.

Covid. Home schooling, if my son can see the work there on the laptop, then he has to get it done. He won't have a break or rest if he can see work there.

Age 8 2nd Caff opened. This Support worker put all of the blame on myself & I agree. Support worker tells me not to cry in front of my son as it 'Makes him think that I am weak'. I am weak.

Behaviour is now absolutely horrendous. Leaving the home, extreme violence. Talks about wanting to kill himself. Gets hold of knives & uses anything he can as weapons. My heart is breaking for my son. Violence extends to his sister.

This lovely school worker mentions Autism & PDA. (She has left now. Beyond gutted) Maybe I can finally make things better for my son... Support worker is having none of it. Constantly tells me that meltdowns are happening because my son is 'Tired/hungry/bored/it's normal' Etc. Etc.

I complain to her manager & ask for the Caff to be closed if that's all the help she's going to be. Caff has been opened for a year & a half, we get a new support worker & keep it open.

New worker is on board with the 'Possible autism'. Tells me it's not my fault.
School is a bit... 'There's a few things going on but nothing of much concern, however, we are concerned re his behaviour at home. (Also, sister is crying in class & tells them that he hurts her)

so (almost done!) Here we are now. We are having family therapy sessions & the therapist has decided that my son is suffering from trauma due to his dad leaving, & that it's nothing like autism. He's dropped this bombshell on me.

I'm not sure where to go from here. When I google, there's clearly overlaps between autism/Trauma. How do I know which one it is? (If it's any) what do I do?

Obviously the thought of my son walking around traumatised is just horrendous. How can I help him? Surely if it's trauma then he needs counselling or something?

I know that nobody on here can actually tell me, I just feel so lost.

oh no things have taken a very dark turn if you are bonding with evil therapist 😂

Thank goodness you’ve had a better afternoon. Stick to your guns with the exit strategy. You know what suits your child best. You’ve had a lot to deal with today, take care of yourself tonight when the kids go to bed.

Hi RantyAnty He used to only have the meltdowns with me (but his dad saw them when we were still together, just they were much less violent then)

Last 6 week holidays my son started displaying the behaviours when we are out, in the park, in a shop etc. This is rare though.

He now has meltdowns at his dad's too.

Before going to holiday club or doing a new activity he will now be extremely anxious, cling to me, cry, beg not to do it etc.

I'd say 85% of the meltdowns are at home with me. 5% are at his dad's, 10% are on the way too or from school with me, when he's upset about something that's happened or is due to happen at school. (Extreme violence on the way to school sometimes & I've had to drag him through the front office before & have them take him from me & then the hitting turns to tears & he begs to stay with me)

But again this is rare, generally, we go through the school gates & he instantly holds it in.

His dad, mostly, thinks my son puts it on. Occasionally I will tell him something & he will say 'Thats a sign of autism isn't it'. But generally he thinks he's just doing it for attention.

Girlattheback I know!

Thank you. I hope things are ok with you tonight as well. You've been there for me a lot.

I've just got my son to bed. They are ok. Quiet. I hope this is it for the night.

I was feeling like you are about 4 years ago, we’ve been through some very dark times with a very ill child but thankfully the last year has been much better for us. I read your post and saw myself, surrounded by forms and professionals who are all talk and no action - the mental load they bring is exhausting. Dealing with that on top of the care needs, the unpredictability of your days, the worry about your child and the desperation you feel to make things better is crushingly relentless.

I think with all that going on you also need some kindness to offset the utter shitness of it all. If it’s helping then please keep talking to us.

Look up the Coventry grid and heather Morans work. She lists behaviours that are similar (eg picking eating) then explains in more detail how they present in autism and attachemnet/trauma

You really need to keep pushing for assessment. There is no way the behaviour you describe is nt unless you are the most ineffective or gentle parent ever. If yelling or telling him no worked I'm sure you'd do it and tried it. I wouldn't blame you for smacking his bottom. But it sounds like you tried that route and it made it worse.
The only thing is if he really masks all the time that's why they say ot can't be pda or autism. As if it's as you say it should be screamingly obvious to professionals. Amd the anxiety at least would be present, the achool would notice anout changes unless you soend so much time ficmxing it for him they never get the chance? Could you.covertly record the meltdown for the social workers or therapist as it dies sound like they don't really believe you and perhaps have written you off as exaggerating when you are not?
I wonder if you've been unlucky and just not seen the right specialists yet.

Sorry I even checked as I typed but mn is shocking for changing words!!

Boomboom School & support worker believe me it's the therapist that doesn't. School suggested Autism/PDA. I didnt.

School has seen his anxieties, the other day he was supposed to do an activity & he was so anxious about it that they called me (saying he wasn't going to do it as he was too distressed) then they got his support worker in who managed to persuade him.

They've seen him refusing to go in in the morning & his teachers had to come out & talk him into it.

They've seen him crying, hiding his face & clinging onto the fence at the end of the day (after something changed in class that day)

They've seen him try to go charging off, sobbing at the end of the day, & me grabbing hold of him & sitting him down, then he refuses to talk to them as he hides his face whilst we are all trying to work out what happened in school that day (& it's always some change in routine/teacher etc)

His teacher has made notes about how he struggles in social situations, loves to be busy, loves a routine, needs to sit by a window etc.

They see it but they don't see the violence (unless they happen to be passing whilst he attacks me on the way to/from school)

I've tried to record before but if he ever sees the phone then it makes him furious.

I've never hit him, not sure if you were implying that. I've shouted, I admit that. I've lost my temper & been furious with him. Especially when he's smearing poo on my face whilst trying to shove me down the stairs. School don't see that side of him. But they have had to shower him before when he pooed himself & didn't wash himself properly after (age 8) & they've had to tell him to get changed as he smells of wee.

He is waiting for an appointment with the pediatrician re toileting issues, mainly at night now.

Thank you Girlattheback I just can't see a way out of this, but I do appreciate you sharing your story & I'm glad you are in a better place now.

We've been referred to Social care X3 by the school but they always just leave the Caff service to deal with it. And 'All talk & no action' is the perfect phrase for them.

It is helping a little getting it out on here.

I'm so glad you've had a day which was a tiny bit better and some peace since they've been in bed. Take every minute you can to breathe.

Like PP have said, keep pushing, pushing for diagnosis. No professional worth their salt could see/ listen to you and think there's a NT child! Therapist is an arse.

One day at a time. Baby steps. That's all I've ever done, as thinking of the future is too huge. First day of school holidays here and it's been calm, so a win here too.

Keep posting.

Wow OP you are amazing. I’m new to the thread and I read all your posts because I do have two DC with ASD that both present very differently.

I’m going to say something here, and while I agree an assessment for ASD should be done, I am concerned because you have gone to great lengths to research and implement dozens, and I mean dozens of ND parenting techniques and they’ve not worked. You’ve worked tirelessly to make home ND friendly for your DS- and it’s not helped. He’s getting worse. You feel a failure, but I don’t see why because you’re doing everything right for an ND child.

I think it is time to consider he may need to also be assessed for a personality disorder- specifically EUPD. ASD and EUPD have overlapping presentations/behaviours but the reasons behind them are night and day difference so the coping mechanisms and parenting techniques are also very different.

He suffers rages that include violence and abuse of family members
He cannot regulate his emotions
He is terrified of abandonment- clings to you, questions every schedule change. He was ‘abandoned’ by his dad so this seems a top fear.
He may feel you/sister will abandon him anyway and so pushes you away to get it over with or tests you with abuse to reassure himself that you’re not going to abandon him.
He exhibits the “I hate you, don’t leave me” contradiction common with EUPD sufferers.
He self harms/ would self harm if had access to the knives
He expresses suicidal thoughts and feelings - to include threats of it.
He experiences dissociation- you mention him hitting your boobs and then denying he would do that or staring at you blankly like he doesn’t know what you’re talking about.

Now, early childhood trauma increases risk of developing a personality disorder, but isn’t a cause of it. They’re not sure what causes it, as many people with loving, stable perfect childhoods grow up to have a personality disorder. So, please don’t feel like this is your fault.

Can you see if the “evil” therapist can get him a psychological assessment as well? I think he might because I think he’s also seeing a bit of what I’m seeing. There may be more going on here. EUPD is (ironically) often missed in boys at the same rate that ASD is missed in girls.

Your DS is clearly very disturbed and it’s causing severe trauma to you and his sister. So I hope you and your DD are also getting support and help for yourselves.

Thank you AP4Diva I will read yours again properly tomorrow. I'm so tired.

One of the things I was so upset about (on starting this thread) was that the therapist dropped this bombshell on me that's it's all trauma, & didn't offer him any counselling/psychiatrist/psychologist, I don't know, anything?!

Yes, I completely agree he’s not very good insofar as bedside manner and follow-up. He should have done a lot more to help you by now. It is possible to have both ASD and a personality disorder, and your DS sounds a very complex individual. That’s why I think he needs a full psychological assessment as well.

I really admire how tenaciously you are fighting for your family. You must be exhausted and honestly, it makes me angry how you’ve been asking for help and yet been left mostly to figure it out on your own. That’s horrific.

Has school thought about an urgent CAMHS referral? That is another way to get your DS assessed. Id speak to the school about it. I’d also consider calling 111 every time he is in a rage, hitting you/breaking things- essentially any time he gets violent and report it as a mental health crisis. It would start a record of just how unwell he is and perhaps light a fire under some arses to fully engage services to help you.

AP5Diva I would say that many of those behaviours etc. could also be associated with just ASD/PDA. I certainly know children with that diagnosis who have a very similar profile, and for some of those children even low demand parenting doesn't help because the anxiety is so high and triggered by so many everyday things that it just doesn't come down. Only someone extremely knowledgeable in both would really be able to unpick what is going on.

I agree, it’s why I think the DS needs both an ASD assessment and a full psychological assessment as well. It is possible it is ASD + a PD because OP has tried so much that would help an ND child, but he’s getting worse instead of there being progress.

I’m no expert, I just think leave no stone unturned and I think no one is giving this the urgency it deserves tbh. Her DS is physically abusing her and his sister.

I wish I could help. I wish I were an expert.

Have you heard of CAPVA? Child to parent violence - I know our trust has a fairly new service running. It might be worth investigating whether anything like this is available in your area. There is an online site too.
I know you’ve been given lots of good advice and sorry if this is repeated but just emphasise to the neuro team how these traits were present before you and Dad separated. I know with our team if there is any trauma background they like you to work with x, y and z first but I know from your posts you’ve engaged with lots so just keep fighting ❤️ Sorry not sure whether it’s different in your area but you can self-refer to our neuro team with a supporting statement from school.
There is also a book I keep seeing recommended called My Explosive Child but I’ve not personally read it. I hope you get some further support soon, sounds like you’re having a really difficult time ❤️ you’re doing amazing x x

https://www.respect.uk.net/pages/115-rypp

you could also potentially ask to do try NVR course - it’s pretty useful in these situations. We did it while out dd was on the conduct disorder pathway. I swear I have been doing n every pathway in CAMHS. I’m think it is too young for a PD - I really do think it is Autism/PDA. I think the problem is your therapist doesn’t have enough proper understanding of autism. I am very skeptical how mindfulness works for an autistic child also. The therapy really needs to be autism adapted, otherwise it won’t be useful - how could it be?

imip The mindfulness techniques won't work, I'm 99% sure, because my son doesn't have that bit where he thinks 'Ok, I'm a little bit angry, so let's do some mindfulness'. But ever since the therapist stopped trying to talk to my son about his feelings & just started doing these techniques instead, the meltdowns after the sessions have stopped. So he can carry on showing us these techniques until the end. Fine by me.

I did NVR a few months ago, & I'd always used a version of it anyway as I was taught all those kinds of techniques when I worked in care.
It was good & I've managed to use it a few times since.

AP5Diva Thank you for your posts, it's definitely interesting to read. I will ask the therapist, otherwise, I don't know how you go about getting my son to see a psychologist? School don't seem able to do anything other than refer to Social care, who just bump it back to the Caff team.

The Caff team, whilst the support worker we have now is lovely, & the kids love her little meetings at school with them, they are starting to get on my nerves because they aren't doing anything. She comes & chats with me & tells me it's not my fault & organizes these meetings with school, where his teacher scratches his head & says he honestly has no idea how the behaviour can be so different at home & at school, (& I glare at him) The Senco tells him it's normal, I list all the latest incidents & ask what more the school can do, they get agitated & list all these little feelings groups that he's done & say there's other children on the list. Support worker says how well I'm doing following the safety plan, & then it ends.

It's a waste of everybody's time tbh but it's all I'm being offered
I don't know how to push for more without the money to pay for it myself?

I asked the support worker before if we could see a psychologist & she said the only one they have access to is the one we saw by myself & he mapped everything out & said I need to find the exit points (I already knew that) but those ones won't work with the children.

Luckymummytoone Thank you, there isn't really one around here but we have something similar called PEGS who the police put me in touch with. They don't offer any sessions like the one you listed though, I waited months & then they just told me to get him into boxing. Which I'm sitting firmly on the fence about.

I can't actually believe that I'm waking up 2 days after that horrendous day on Sunday, & still nobody is helping. My mind is struggling with the fact that I'm begging & pleading with people to help & they aren't doing anything.

They make me feel like I threaten to leave my kids all the time & it's just a regular occurrence to be 'There, there'd' at

I can’t believe no one is helping you either. They seem to be thinking it’s not as serious as it is?! So your DS has never actually seen a psychologist- there was one that you saw by yourself. You might want to give Young Minds a call and chat on how to get him an urgent referral to CAMHS.

https://www.youngminds.org.uk/parent/getting-help-for-your-child/

https://www.youngminds.org.uk/parent/find-help/my-child-needs-urgent-help/

The focus is on children being suicidal- anger directed inwards, but in certain children like your DS the anger can also be directed outwards. It’s just as serious and he needs mental health help.

Thank you AP5Diva I've definitely looked at young minds before but can't remember speaking to them. The support worker is supposed to be back today & giving me a call (why though as nothing will change)

They do know how serious it is they just seem to be really, really able to brush or under the carpet or something?! I don't know, but when I spoke to support workers manager yesterday he was obviously reading our file & he said 'And has he been putting bags over his or your heads any more? Or trying to swallow batteries?' so it's all there. That's serious stuff, isn't it? I feel like I'm living in the Twilight zone where stuff that I think is bad, is actually ok!

Also,one of the police reports said ''Displays extreme violence towards his mother'. (I only know this because support worker showed me it when I was saying 'They saw him hurting me! Somebody has finally seen it!')

All good this morning, they are in school & seem ok.

Can you ask the school for an Educational Psychologist assessment?
Honestly if you start the parent application process for the EHCP and you write everything you have said here you would probably get the local authority to assess as the threshold is "may have SEN". Look at IPSEA if you haven't already. The application costs nothing but can be a slog but worth it to get all the OT and psychological input.

I've emailed school & asked about an educational psychologist & also asked the therapist. No answer yet & havn't heard from the support worker yet.

I've spoken to PDA society & they are giving me a call on Friday.

That's all I feel like I can manage today.