Why are gender roles viewed negatively?

[reddragon7]

I read and see so many threads and real life examples, where men and women feel the need to be “equal.” The man about to become a father, refuses to become the main earner, even when he has the means, and insists that his wife also work and contribute financially. Doesn’t this seem imbalanced to anyone, and that society is being brainwashed to accept this as the norm.

I have nothing against a woman wishing to work post-children, however, I don’t understand why society and some men put pressure on their wives to work, if she would rather stay home with the children. This has now become and expectation. If a woman is contributing financially, it is never really 50/50, as she is also doing most of the domestic work.

People condemn gender roles as though they are ancient, but seem to forget that, biologically and psychologically, women are naturally better caregivers to children. They are the ones pregnant, produce all these hormones, and better equipped to raise a child than a man. Of course, there are exceptions, but as a general fact, people seem to ignore this.

In view of all this, I believe more men should offer to be financial providers, giving women the option to not work after children, as childcare costs aren’t exactly saving them much anyway. Otherwise, it feels we are moving away from our gender roles, which may actually be more helpful in a marriage, than people make out.

Do you think it would be better to understand why people hold these beliefs though? There's always a reason behind deeply entrenched beliefs and finding out the reasons may assist in tackling the issue.

For example, my grandfather fought in World War 2 and he was posted in Burma. He battled against an opposing country over there. To his dying day, he still had a hatred for that particular country due to what he had experienced. That is something I could completely understand. I never agreed with him but I also never voiced my opinions as I could not even begin to comprehend what he had been through. On the surface, he came across racist but there were far deeper issues going on.

I digress, but my point was that sometimes it can assist by thinking outside the box and understanding why people hold the views they do and to understand them, a level of respect is needed.

I will use the example of religion.

Person A is very religious and does not believe in homosexual relationships. Whilst holding those views, they don't harm others and don't interfere in their lifestyle.

Person B does not agree with Person A's beliefs and challenges them, calling them homophobic.

Person A is respecting other views whereas Person B cannot respect someone's religion and why they may hold those beliefs.

It's just not black and white.

But you just told us not to question someones beliefs

So we are both supposed to not question someones beliefs and better understand them?

Out of interest how many sexist, homophobic or racist people do you know who spend a lot of time trying to understand the other persons point of view?

How exactly does a person espousing thise beliefs on a world wide forum not harm others by normalising homophobia

And to be clear the OP has already confirmed she isnt religious so its irrelevant to this thread

I have to disagree there, the issue of homosexuality was not even brought up by OP. She was consistently asked about it and in the end, it looked like she felt she had to provide an answer. That was not the topic of conversation, so in my opinon, she did not invite opinions on that subject.

I agree that we can't police people's private thoughts. However, I would argue that openly expressing sexist and homophobic opinions, and particularly trying to present some of those opinions as facts, does cause harm to others.

In what world was a conversation on traditional gender roles in relationships not going to end up discussing same sex relationships?

Maybe she shouldnt have discussed gender roles in relationships if she wasnt willing to discuss all connotations of various combinations of roles

It was just a hypothetical example.

She was essentially pressured into expressing her views though. It was not her who brought the topic up. If she is continuously asked about it, then she is going to end up giving an answer that some may not like. Do you think she should have stayed quiet despite people telling her she was ignoring the question? Should she have lied about her beliefs? Should other people's beliefs be forced on her so she feels like she has to change?

Racism is not relevant to this thread either but that topic has been brought up numerous times.

I will use the example of religion.

Person A is very religious and does not believe in homosexual relationships. Whilst holding those views, they don't harm others and don't interfere in their lifestyle.

Person B does not agree with Person A's beliefs and challenges them, calling them homophobic.

Person A is respecting other views whereas Person B cannot respect someone's religion and why they may hold those beliefs.

Why should a belief be respected?

This is at the heart of it to me.

I respect the right of anyone to have whatever views they want: philosophical, moral, ethical, political, religious etc.

I don't believe beliefs should be beyond question and challenge.

How do you decide which belief is allowed to be challenged and which aren't?

What's the difference between:

Person A, an atheist run of the mill middle aged man who says "the gays can do what they want to, it's up to them. Getting married is a bit too far. It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve"

And

Person B, a religious woman who says"I've got nothing against gay people. If they want to have a same sex relationship that's up to them. I just don't think they should get married because I don't agree with gay marriage"

?

To me they're both the same.

Both are entitled to their views.
Both are entitled to express their views.
Neither have the right to be beyond challenge, question, or criticism.

I agree with not presenting opinons as facts as they are two completely different things.

In what sense do you feel it causes harm to others?

Like when you accsused posters of being racist for disagreeing with homophobia you mean?

You are very very very determined to defend people vocalising homophobic beliefs

If you bring up a topic about rights within relationships then it's perfectly reasonable to discuss same sex relationships

*But you just told us not to question someones beliefs

So we are both supposed to not question someones beliefs and better understand them?*

Any chance of an answer to this? Im genuinely curious as to how to reconcile these two?

I don't feel that anyone should be saying those comments and same-sex marriage in public, or on a public forum as it is a sensitive subject with many having their own strong feelings on the subject.

My standpoint is that all people and all views should be respected. If we do not agree with something, is it really beneficial to say anything? Can someone just walk away from a conversation in order to keep the peace? Sometimes it is just not worth speaking out.

I don't believe in criticising other people's views. Questionning is fine as that is how we all learn but respect is definitely a two way street.

Homosexuality came into it because o/p stated she believed that gender roles are based in biology.

that women are better at raising children because they birth them, and nurturing is innate.

she stated men should be financially responsible because biologically, they cannot care for children as well as they are not programmed to do so.

because of this women have the “right” to unilaterally decide not to work, and be provided for by a man.

so as part of the following discussion where posters asked o/p to prove her hypothesis- several posters asked how this biological, hard wired qualities work with gay couples.

gay people do successfully raise healthy, happy children. O/p was asked how could that be if her statements on biology were true.

instead of addressing the question she avoided it by saying she didn’t agree with homosexuality therefore it’s not relevant. It is relevant as if here ideas on biology are true gay couples wouldn’t be able to raise children successfully, and there’d be evidence that children don’t do as well.

she is avoiding the homosexuality question because it doesn’t confirm her belief that only women can raise children.

If I am honest, I do not think the subject should have come up at all and it is not one I would have raised myself.

I did not accuse people of being racist for disagreeing with homophobia. I felt they were being racist when criticising a culture. Additionally, that comment was made by me on the basis of someone else bringing racism into the conversation.

I said a few pages ago that I think there’s sock puppetry going on full swing here

I don't believe in criticising other people's views.

If a man says women should be seen and not heard, you wouldn't criticise his views?

If a white person said interracial relationships should be banned, you wouldn't criticise their views?

If a teenage boy says that teenage girls are frigid if they don't have sex when boys want to, you wouldn't criticise their views?

Criticising views is a viral part of social discourse when it comes to keeping us all safe. If nobody challenges views, especially harmful ones, we stop progress being made.

Is this directed at me? I wasn't sure.

@SittingNextToIt I have no idea what sock puppetry means, sorry.

Remarkable isn’t it how the writing style of @Bepis and @reddragon7 seem so identical, their views so aligned and one has the other’s back.

truly remarkable. Like minded posters I guess…. So very very like minded

cough SOCK cough

I personally wouldn't no, I just wouldn't engage with those types of people and wouldn't have them in my life.

@SittingNextToIt Look us both up, our threads etc. Hopefully that will demonstrate that we are not the same person, nor do we know each other.

I haven't expressed my beliefs on here but have explained why I feel the way I do.

The promotion of gender stereotypes causes harm in lots of different ways. It can feed into women being unfairly discriminated against in work because of assumptions that are made about them, as others have already indicated on this thread. Pushing the idea that women are naturally wired to do childcare/domestic stuff can feed into men feeling that they shouldn't have to pull their weight in the home, even when women are contributing on an equal basis financially. It can feed into some women feeling guilty about choices that they really have no need to feel guilty about. It can get in the way of men having close and meaningful relationships with their children.

If individual women want to stay at home with their children, and their partners are happy for them to do that, why not just say that "we're doing this because it works for us"? Why try to broaden it out to others by arguing that traditional gender roles are better or somehow more natural?

As for the harm that can be done by homophobic comments, do you not think that normalising prejudice is damaging? Would you not agree that presenting homosexuality as a "life choice" is incredibly misleading

Words have impact. The OP is, of course, perfectly entitled to express her views, but if she makes statements that are controversial or offensive, then she should fully expect to be robustly challenged on those.

We do not have to respect opinions that we find morally objectionable. We do have to respect people's right to hold those opinions, but that doesn't mean that we need to pretend that we think all opinions are equally valid.

@Bepis

I personally wouldn't no, I just wouldn't engage with those types of people and wouldn't have them in my life

That's your prerogative of course.

But I do hope that people who never speak up against racism, homophobia, sexism, misogyny etc are grateful for those who do.

Because those who do speak up against sexism and misogyny (for example) are the ones trying to make your life safer and fairer as a woman.

Person A is respecting other views whereas Person B cannot respect someone's religion and why they may hold those beliefs.

Sorry, there are some views that just don't deserve respect. It doesn't matter what their origin is, outdated views need to be challenged.