Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

Please or to access all these features

Parenting

For free parenting resources please check out the Early Years Alliance's Family Corner.

Why are gender roles viewed negatively?

866 replies

reddragon7 · 04/04/2023 20:32

I read and see so many threads and real life examples, where men and women feel the need to be “equal.” The man about to become a father, refuses to become the main earner, even when he has the means, and insists that his wife also work and contribute financially. Doesn’t this seem imbalanced to anyone, and that society is being brainwashed to accept this as the norm.

I have nothing against a woman wishing to work post-children, however, I don’t understand why society and some men put pressure on their wives to work, if she would rather stay home with the children. This has now become and expectation. If a woman is contributing financially, it is never really 50/50, as she is also doing most of the domestic work.

People condemn gender roles as though they are ancient, but seem to forget that, biologically and psychologically, women are naturally better caregivers to children. They are the ones pregnant, produce all these hormones, and better equipped to raise a child than a man. Of course, there are exceptions, but as a general fact, people seem to ignore this.

In view of all this, I believe more men should offer to be financial providers, giving women the option to not work after children, as childcare costs aren’t exactly saving them much anyway. Otherwise, it feels we are moving away from our gender roles, which may actually be more helpful in a marriage, than people make out.

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
digshallow · 05/04/2023 23:02

And all for reasons of "biology" apparently, despite not being able to give one credible fact to back this opinion, having to back track that it's an opinion and not indeed fact.

reddragon7 · 05/04/2023 23:04

LolaSmiles · 05/04/2023 22:45

people haven't actually questioned the OP's intellectual simply because she holds traditional beliefs but rather because of the way in which she has conducted herself on this thread and consistently failed to put across a coherent argument.
This.

The idea that different couples structure their family according to what both people want isn't a controversial statement.
Plenty of people choose a traditional set up for their family because it suits them and their preferences.

What is controversial is this (as nicely paraphrased by another poster):
OP said that women have the right to be financially provided for by their husbands and men have the right to sex with those wives

She's spoke about rights, not just preferences

This is all deeply problematic.

Why should anyone have the right to push their spouse into being sole financial provider?
Why should anyone have the right to gain sex by coercion, which is what it is if someone genuinely believes that they are entitled to sex as a right?

Oh my goodness! People are really creating uproar simply cos I used the term “right,” ignoring the fact that I clarified I meant it is fair for couples to expect sex from one another in a marriage. Especially since I would only allow sex within marriage anyway, so I think it’s fair to mention this.

OP posts:
digshallow · 05/04/2023 23:06

@reddragon7 you've haven't just used the term for sex though, you have consistently used it when discussing women's "rights" in marriage, and defended it, sex aside that's still a shit opinion however you colour the terminology.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Dacadactyl · 05/04/2023 23:11

LolaSmiles · 05/04/2023 22:58

I do understand what she is saying and I accept her explanation for her phraseology

So you believe that a woman has the right to demand her husband supports her and the family financially on his own, regardless of his views on this?

You believe that a husband has a right to sex in a marriage?

The OP hasn't said some people mutuality agree to follow a traditional WOHP/SAHP model with dad working and mum staying home.

She's talking about women having the right to dictate their husband's financial responsibilities and men having the right to sex.

Well the OP (and women like her) are hardly going to marry a man who has no understanding of what she is saying!

Bepis · 05/04/2023 23:12

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 05/04/2023 22:53

Yes @Bepis, I would be interested to know if you would agree with the OP that a woman has the right to be financially supported by her husband, even if he doesn't want to and regardless of whether there are any children.

I get that some couples mutually agree on a "traditional" division of labour, but the OP is talking about rights not agreements. Do you share this perspective?

No I don't agree that women should automatically have the right. It should be a joint decision.

LolaSmiles · 05/04/2023 23:16

Well the OP (and women like her) are hardly going to marry a man who has no understanding of what she is saying!
I agree with you that women like her will look for a man who wants a SAHP, and I would support that if that's what's right for her.

However the OP doesn't talk in terms of mutually agreed preferences. She's talking about what she thinks the rights of husbands and wives should be, and they're problematic.

She believes that women should have the right to have no financial responsibility towards the family unit, that it's a woman's right to be provided for by a husband because she's become a mother, that women should only go to work if they want to. The husband in this situation has no rights. Whether he becomes solely responsible for the family finances comes down to whether his wife feels like working or not.

She also thinks that husbands have a right to sex.

digshallow · 05/04/2023 23:16

OP resurrected a zombie thread last week just to say women are "wired" to need to be financially supported by men. You can't argue with stupid, but glad they've had their arses handed to them in this thread too (deliberate pronoun use).

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 05/04/2023 23:18

Dacadactyl · 05/04/2023 23:11

Well the OP (and women like her) are hardly going to marry a man who has no understanding of what she is saying!

Well, hopefully not, but the fact remains that the OP has repeatedly talked about rights on this thread. Not about shared understandings or mutual agreements.

Perhaps the OP didn't really mean rights at all in relation to any of it, but then why use that kind of language in the first place? Either she did mean "rights" or she was deliberately trying to wind people up.

LolaSmiles · 05/04/2023 23:20

digshallow
That doesn't surprise me somehow.

Questionable views on consent and sex are always a bit of a red flag.

SnowyGiveAway · 05/04/2023 23:21

Some of you may not want, or be able to, have a career and raise a family at the same time. You may have discussed this with your partner and come to a solution that suits the needs of your family. Fine.

Plenty of us, possibly most of us, can do both and want to do both. To start talking in absolute terms about men and women's rights and roles is some bullshit.

1a

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 05/04/2023 23:21

Bepis · 05/04/2023 23:12

No I don't agree that women should automatically have the right. It should be a joint decision.

OK, so that is a perfectly reasonable point of view. I agree with you.

The OP is saying something quite different, without any logical reasoning or coherent argument behind it. That is why she is getting her arse handed to her on a plate.

NemoandDoris · 05/04/2023 23:22

David Attenburgh, I think, once said if you want to control a human population educate the women.

So yes, a female could spend the majority of her life as a caregiver providing 'more men should offer to be financial providers,'. Sadly men are not always very not very good at contributing financially and taking responsibility for the offspring and leave the women to handle both the finances and caring role. Educating women allows them to see that a) there are alternatives and b) able to earn enough to not have to be a sex slave to man who is gracious enough to provide financially to his own offspring.

I think these days most women are savvy enough to realise men can be bit shit and they need to look out for themselves more.

Mycathatesmecuddling · 05/04/2023 23:26

digshallow · 05/04/2023 23:16

OP resurrected a zombie thread last week just to say women are "wired" to need to be financially supported by men. You can't argue with stupid, but glad they've had their arses handed to them in this thread too (deliberate pronoun use).

I'd ask to see the science behind that claim of being wired a certain way, but im guessing we would never see it

Mycathatesmecuddling · 05/04/2023 23:31

Bepis · 05/04/2023 23:12

No I don't agree that women should automatically have the right. It should be a joint decision.

No one is saying that couples shouldnt make a joint decision to have a sahp, although rightly so some posters have pointed out this can leave women more vulnerable to domestic abuse (and the stats bear this out in the UK at least)

What we are arguing against is the concept that women can demand that the man is solely financially responsible for them just because they happen to be women. Not as a joint decision, as a demand.

And given the poster talks about demanding financial support as a woman in the same terminology as sex for a man I'm pretty sure the general concept is it is okay for men to demand sex

Because a relationship where a woman doesnt have the freedom to leave because shes not financially independent, and a man can be expected to demand sex because he's paying for things doesnt sound like a healthy relationship and shouldnt be the basis of a sahp set up

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 05/04/2023 23:36

Mycathatesmecuddling · 05/04/2023 23:31

No one is saying that couples shouldnt make a joint decision to have a sahp, although rightly so some posters have pointed out this can leave women more vulnerable to domestic abuse (and the stats bear this out in the UK at least)

What we are arguing against is the concept that women can demand that the man is solely financially responsible for them just because they happen to be women. Not as a joint decision, as a demand.

And given the poster talks about demanding financial support as a woman in the same terminology as sex for a man I'm pretty sure the general concept is it is okay for men to demand sex

Because a relationship where a woman doesnt have the freedom to leave because shes not financially independent, and a man can be expected to demand sex because he's paying for things doesnt sound like a healthy relationship and shouldnt be the basis of a sahp set up

I'm pretty sure that the majority of SAHMs would recoil in horror at the type of marriage contract being suggested by the OP.

reddragon7 · 05/04/2023 23:55

Wow, looks like I definitely used harsh terminology and really wound people up. I’m sorry for the uproar, but I really thought people would be more understanding. I’m typing and thought I’m having a casual chat, not deeping every word I say.

I simply believe there is nothing wrong with desiring financial provision from a man, whilst wanting to be a homemaker. I just wanted to know why men don’t want support their partners if they feel this way. And why there is almost always an expectation for women to return to work as soon as they can. An open floor for perspectives and opinions. I agree many of my traditional opinions may seem very strong to others, but I feel this works in many ways.

As for sex, it’s simply an addition to the marriage, that wouldn’t necessarily be allowed outside of it, given I don’t believe in sex before marriage anyway. And no, this doesn’t mean, coercion or lack of consent, simply that sex is something couples should freely be able to enjoy and expect from one another in a marriage. I’m sorry for misusing the sex terminology - that was NOT supposed to raise so many issues.

OP posts:
reddragon7 · 06/04/2023 00:01

Mycathatesmecuddling · 05/04/2023 23:26

I'd ask to see the science behind that claim of being wired a certain way, but im guessing we would never see it

Jeez, that was my honest opinion. That some women do like to be financially supported by men, as others may believe in gender roles like I do.

OP posts:
Mycathatesmecuddling · 06/04/2023 00:03

You are using lots of 'jeez' and 'outrage' and 'uproar' and 'shocked' in response to posters simply responding to you. It's on the verge of telling us to 'calm down' or implying we are emotional, along with a hint of be kind, be more understanding etc

You keep saying its an open floor for ideas and perspectives (and it is, you dont control that) but then when people disagree with you you accuse them of being outraged or in uproar because they haven't agreed that what you think works would work for everyone

reddragon7 · 06/04/2023 00:05

If you think about it, before marriage, many women who have sex with guys, may wind up pregnant and then not even receive emotional, never mind, financial support. They are therefore, not protected legally. And in that relationship, who has benefitted more, the man has not only used the women for sex, and benefitted financially by marrying her, but he is essentially let off from the usual responsibilities. This is why I mentioned sex as a topic that I believe is wiser in marriage only.

OP posts:
reddragon7 · 06/04/2023 00:09

Mycathatesmecuddling · 06/04/2023 00:03

You are using lots of 'jeez' and 'outrage' and 'uproar' and 'shocked' in response to posters simply responding to you. It's on the verge of telling us to 'calm down' or implying we are emotional, along with a hint of be kind, be more understanding etc

You keep saying its an open floor for ideas and perspectives (and it is, you dont control that) but then when people disagree with you you accuse them of being outraged or in uproar because they haven't agreed that what you think works would work for everyone

Well, I actually didn’t expect people to be so outraged by opinions and get so offended to be frank. I have no problem with people disagreeing but it’s not like I am saying they’re taking a like or shit and nonsense, in response. Saying I’m not in a stage if life to understand wth.

It seems to me more like people can’t take that I have certain views. Granted, I haven’t used the perfect terminology, and caused misunderstanding, but when I try to clarify myself, people only concentrate on picking bits out, rather than wanting to understand the context of what I mean.

OP posts:
reddragon7 · 06/04/2023 00:10

reddragon7 · 06/04/2023 00:05

If you think about it, before marriage, many women who have sex with guys, may wind up pregnant and then not even receive emotional, never mind, financial support. They are therefore, not protected legally. And in that relationship, who has benefitted more, the man has not only used the women for sex, and benefitted financially by marrying her, but he is essentially let off from the usual responsibilities. This is why I mentioned sex as a topic that I believe is wiser in marriage only.

By NOT marrying her*

OP posts:
AnorLondo · 06/04/2023 00:12

reddragon7 · 06/04/2023 00:05

If you think about it, before marriage, many women who have sex with guys, may wind up pregnant and then not even receive emotional, never mind, financial support. They are therefore, not protected legally. And in that relationship, who has benefitted more, the man has not only used the women for sex, and benefitted financially by marrying her, but he is essentially let off from the usual responsibilities. This is why I mentioned sex as a topic that I believe is wiser in marriage only.

You still seem to think that sex is a one-way street that women don't enjoy. Which might be the case when you do it but thankfully not for everyone.

reddragon7 · 06/04/2023 00:13

AnorLondo · 06/04/2023 00:12

You still seem to think that sex is a one-way street that women don't enjoy. Which might be the case when you do it but thankfully not for everyone.

And no, I don’t think it’s a one way street at all. I even said both men and women are free to enjoy sex within a marriage. But women suffer more from the consequences of sex outside a marriage.

OP posts:
Mycathatesmecuddling · 06/04/2023 00:15

reddragon7 · 06/04/2023 00:09

Well, I actually didn’t expect people to be so outraged by opinions and get so offended to be frank. I have no problem with people disagreeing but it’s not like I am saying they’re taking a like or shit and nonsense, in response. Saying I’m not in a stage if life to understand wth.

It seems to me more like people can’t take that I have certain views. Granted, I haven’t used the perfect terminology, and caused misunderstanding, but when I try to clarify myself, people only concentrate on picking bits out, rather than wanting to understand the context of what I mean.

Im not sure if this is naivety or faux naivety at this stage

But just to be clear the main poster who seems unable to take that people have other views is you

reddragon7 · 06/04/2023 00:17

Mycathatesmecuddling · 06/04/2023 00:15

Im not sure if this is naivety or faux naivety at this stage

But just to be clear the main poster who seems unable to take that people have other views is you

Not really, I said so many times that if people have other agreements, that’s absolutely fine. But I wanted to know the opposition etc. People responded to me by saying what a load of shite, that I am not in an stage of life to understand, and that I am speaking bullshit. That’s not perspective, or an open floor for discussion - it’s simple that they don’t like my views. I don’t agree with other views people have, you don’t see me personally attacking someone for their views.

OP posts: