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Why are gender roles viewed negatively?

866 replies

reddragon7 · 04/04/2023 20:32

I read and see so many threads and real life examples, where men and women feel the need to be “equal.” The man about to become a father, refuses to become the main earner, even when he has the means, and insists that his wife also work and contribute financially. Doesn’t this seem imbalanced to anyone, and that society is being brainwashed to accept this as the norm.

I have nothing against a woman wishing to work post-children, however, I don’t understand why society and some men put pressure on their wives to work, if she would rather stay home with the children. This has now become and expectation. If a woman is contributing financially, it is never really 50/50, as she is also doing most of the domestic work.

People condemn gender roles as though they are ancient, but seem to forget that, biologically and psychologically, women are naturally better caregivers to children. They are the ones pregnant, produce all these hormones, and better equipped to raise a child than a man. Of course, there are exceptions, but as a general fact, people seem to ignore this.

In view of all this, I believe more men should offer to be financial providers, giving women the option to not work after children, as childcare costs aren’t exactly saving them much anyway. Otherwise, it feels we are moving away from our gender roles, which may actually be more helpful in a marriage, than people make out.

OP posts:
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reddragon7 · 05/04/2023 20:07

CattySam · 05/04/2023 19:47

You have started a Mumsnet thread about it to try and convince people. I hope that’s because you don’t feel confident preaching this shite IRL.

I am also wondering if perhaps your are a man with particular values who wants to tell a female audience what a good idea the ‘trad wife’ role is. The idea that a woman would speak about being paid out of their husbands pay packet for sex (& yes, that is what you are saying) is bloody terrifying.

Oh gosh no, not at all

OP posts:
MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 05/04/2023 20:18

reddragon7 · 05/04/2023 20:06

No, I do not mean they have to right to sex whenever, damn - I phrased it in such a controversial way. I was meant to say, sex is a benefit both in a marriage, but I feel men benefit more, as they tend to chase sex more (again, opinion). And just just man is financially providing, this doesn’t mean he’s devoid of childcare and domestic chores.

So many have rights in marriage (because that's what you called them) that are not really rights because it's all subject to agreement?

Does the same requirement for agreement also apply to the woman's right to be financially supported? Ie is this also subject to the man's consent?

Either you are talking about rights in the correct sense of the word or you are talking about mutual agreements. You can't have rights that are inalienable for one sex and subject to consent for the other.

What are the husband's obligations with regard to financially supporting his wife if she doesn't ever want to have sex with him, I wonder? Is he released from his responsibility?

And what happens if she decides that she wants to work and he wants her to stay at home? Is she still expected to manage the bulk of the domestic load herself because she has been given the option not to work? Can he be released from the breadwinning duties at this point?

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 05/04/2023 20:21

That was supposed to say "men have rights in marriage that are not really rights". Not "many".

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

F1nit0 · 05/04/2023 20:29

What in the 1950's......

"I read and see so many threads and real life examples, where men and women feel the need to be “equal.” " 🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠

You must not live anywhere near London. You need 5 full time salaries just to pay a mortgage. Absolute LOLZ at one salary being able to cover it.

Trouble is this can also put unnecessary pressure on men to have an incredibly high salary and feel low if they can't provide that. That's not something I'd want for my husband or my son.

We fight so hard to be taken seriously in a work place. We'd have no hope if they started assuming women on mass wouldn't return after mat leave.

I couldn't think of anything worse than having to ask my husband if I can buy something.

I could go on but luckily I hope we have moved on from these archaic views. 🤞🫠

SnowyGiveAway · 05/04/2023 20:35

reddragon7 · 05/04/2023 20:06

No, I do not mean they have to right to sex whenever, damn - I phrased it in such a controversial way. I was meant to say, sex is a benefit both in a marriage, but I feel men benefit more, as they tend to chase sex more (again, opinion). And just just man is financially providing, this doesn’t mean he’s devoid of childcare and domestic chores.

I think what you don't get is that most of us don't want to be provided for by another adult. We want autonomy, independence, freedom, a way out if needed, career satisfaction, not to feel like we 'owe' sex and a cooked meal, the use of our brains, to be whole functioning humans. You know, like what men want too.

Your deal is a raw deal for women

Dacadactyl · 05/04/2023 20:38

To all those piling on the OP, do not think you have a right to sex within a marriage then, as a woman?

Barring illness or disability on the part of my husband (God forbid), I expect to have sex. I do not mean whenever I want, but I do not expect him to withhold it unreasonably either.

__

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 05/04/2023 20:43

Dacadactyl · 05/04/2023 20:38

To all those piling on the OP, do not think you have a right to sex within a marriage then, as a woman?

Barring illness or disability on the part of my husband (God forbid), I expect to have sex. I do not mean whenever I want, but I do not expect him to withhold it unreasonably either.

__

No, absolutely not.

I believe that I have the right to walk away from my marriage if any of my needs are not being adequately met, but I don't believe that I have the right to have sex with anyone. And I would be disgusted if my DH thought that he had that right, but thankfully he isn't a neanderthal.

digshallow · 05/04/2023 20:45

@Dacadactyl not a right no, to say something is a right is to say it is owed, deserved, mandated; sex must always be freely given, a choice, even in a marriage. You don't have to stay in a sexless marriage, but you equally don't get to demand sex.

SouthLondonMum22 · 05/04/2023 20:50

@Dacadactyl No. Not at all.

No one has the right to sex. Ever.

SnowyGiveAway · 05/04/2023 20:50

Dacadactyl · 05/04/2023 20:38

To all those piling on the OP, do not think you have a right to sex within a marriage then, as a woman?

Barring illness or disability on the part of my husband (God forbid), I expect to have sex. I do not mean whenever I want, but I do not expect him to withhold it unreasonably either.

__

I expect that my husband will want to have sex with me, more or less when I want to have sex with him. Sometimes not.

My expectations may be wrong and then I do not get to have sex. Because I don't have a right to another person's body. There is nothing hard about this concept

SnowyGiveAway · 05/04/2023 20:52

Your expectations are not the same as your rights @Dacadactyl

monsteramunch · 05/04/2023 20:56

Dacadactyl · 05/04/2023 20:38

To all those piling on the OP, do not think you have a right to sex within a marriage then, as a woman?

Barring illness or disability on the part of my husband (God forbid), I expect to have sex. I do not mean whenever I want, but I do not expect him to withhold it unreasonably either.

__

No, I don't have 'the right to sex'. No exceptions.

I have the right to desire a happy, healthy sex like.

I have the right to leave a relationship if I am unhappy with my sex life.

I have the right to only have sex when I genuinely want to.

My partner has all the same rights.

I do not, ever, have 'the right to sex'.

Neither does he.

HTH.

LolaSmiles · 05/04/2023 21:36

To all those piling on the OP, do not think you have a right to sex within a marriage then, as a woman?
Absolutely not.

Why would I have the right to demand someone to ignore their bodily autonomy?

The idea that someone choosing not to consent to sex could be deemed unreasonably witholding sex is creepy.

Coercion is not ok.

Bepis · 05/04/2023 21:37

Wow people on here are so rude when they don't agree with others point of view. Why resort to criticising and name calling? It's awful to read on what otherwise would be an interesting thread.

Just because the OP believes in the more traditional roles doesn't make her intellectually impaired or that she has no idea what she is talking about.

I hold the same views as her yet I have a law degree so that statement carries no weight. I have never believed in working while putting my children into nursery as a baby and I have never done it. Neither did my own mum. I wouldn't be able to have a career and raise my family. Something would suffer and it would most likely be the children.

digshallow · 05/04/2023 21:44

@Bepis did you miss the bit where OP said men have a right to sex in marriage? Because you'll notice that has been the part that's mostly been dissected the last few pages if you've read the thread.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 05/04/2023 21:50

Bepis · 05/04/2023 21:37

Wow people on here are so rude when they don't agree with others point of view. Why resort to criticising and name calling? It's awful to read on what otherwise would be an interesting thread.

Just because the OP believes in the more traditional roles doesn't make her intellectually impaired or that she has no idea what she is talking about.

I hold the same views as her yet I have a law degree so that statement carries no weight. I have never believed in working while putting my children into nursery as a baby and I have never done it. Neither did my own mum. I wouldn't be able to have a career and raise my family. Something would suffer and it would most likely be the children.

That's fine if you personally don't feel that you would be capable of combining a career with raising your children. We are all different and we all make the decisions that are best for our families. I wouldn't judge anyone for recognising their own personal limitations and making decisions accordingly.

As you are an intelligent person, you will no doubt have the reading comprehension skills that will enable you to note the fact that people haven't actually questioned the OP's intellectual simply because she holds traditional beliefs but rather because of the way in which she has conducted herself on this thread and consistently failed to put across a coherent argument.

monsteramunch · 05/04/2023 21:50

Bepis · 05/04/2023 21:37

Wow people on here are so rude when they don't agree with others point of view. Why resort to criticising and name calling? It's awful to read on what otherwise would be an interesting thread.

Just because the OP believes in the more traditional roles doesn't make her intellectually impaired or that she has no idea what she is talking about.

I hold the same views as her yet I have a law degree so that statement carries no weight. I have never believed in working while putting my children into nursery as a baby and I have never done it. Neither did my own mum. I wouldn't be able to have a career and raise my family. Something would suffer and it would most likely be the children.

OP said that women have the right to be financially provided for by their husbands and men have the right to sex with those wives.

I'm surprised that you can't see why people have heavily criticised that statement for the last few pages.

She's spoke about rights, not just preferences.

Bepis · 05/04/2023 22:44

I feel it is just the way she worded it but I understand what OP is trying to say.

She essentially values the traditional roles of the husband going out to work and providing for his family, while the woman is in the home looking after the children, keeping the house running smoothly etc. it's teamwork but with each person having a different role. They all contribute to making the family work.

I also understood her meaning behind the sex issue. Neither partner has the right to demand sex to fulfil their own needs but equally, it would not be fair to withhold sex within a marriage. So it's putting the other person first and thinking about their needs and they will also do the same hopefully.

LolaSmiles · 05/04/2023 22:45

people haven't actually questioned the OP's intellectual simply because she holds traditional beliefs but rather because of the way in which she has conducted herself on this thread and consistently failed to put across a coherent argument.
This.

The idea that different couples structure their family according to what both people want isn't a controversial statement.
Plenty of people choose a traditional set up for their family because it suits them and their preferences.

What is controversial is this (as nicely paraphrased by another poster):
OP said that women have the right to be financially provided for by their husbands and men have the right to sex with those wives

She's spoke about rights, not just preferences

This is all deeply problematic.

Why should anyone have the right to push their spouse into being sole financial provider?
Why should anyone have the right to gain sex by coercion, which is what it is if someone genuinely believes that they are entitled to sex as a right?

digshallow · 05/04/2023 22:48

@Bepis you don't understand what she's saying because I don't even think the OP does, she's clearly not even at that stage of life herself yet, you just feel validated by her overall viewpoint even though it has been really poorly worded and is not a very good endorsement of "traditional" roles.

Bepis · 05/04/2023 22:49

digshallow · 05/04/2023 22:48

@Bepis you don't understand what she's saying because I don't even think the OP does, she's clearly not even at that stage of life herself yet, you just feel validated by her overall viewpoint even though it has been really poorly worded and is not a very good endorsement of "traditional" roles.

I do understand what she is saying and I accept her explanation for her phraseology.

digshallow · 05/04/2023 22:53

@Bepis even the bit where she says women have a right to be taken care of by a man? No discussion of teamwork, just entitlement.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 05/04/2023 22:53

Yes @Bepis, I would be interested to know if you would agree with the OP that a woman has the right to be financially supported by her husband, even if he doesn't want to and regardless of whether there are any children.

I get that some couples mutually agree on a "traditional" division of labour, but the OP is talking about rights not agreements. Do you share this perspective?

Mycathatesmecuddling · 05/04/2023 22:56

Bepis · 05/04/2023 22:44

I feel it is just the way she worded it but I understand what OP is trying to say.

She essentially values the traditional roles of the husband going out to work and providing for his family, while the woman is in the home looking after the children, keeping the house running smoothly etc. it's teamwork but with each person having a different role. They all contribute to making the family work.

I also understood her meaning behind the sex issue. Neither partner has the right to demand sex to fulfil their own needs but equally, it would not be fair to withhold sex within a marriage. So it's putting the other person first and thinking about their needs and they will also do the same hopefully.

And the fact that she thinks only married hetrosexual women are allowed to fit into those 'traditional' roles, not unmarried women or homosexual women?

Because that's not just about teamwork is it?

She thinks that children benefit from having the mother at home but only the children of married hetrosexual women are allowed to benefit from this from her point of view.

Even without all the stuff about the 'rights of the man' to have sex in return for paying his wife a wage, the bias against same sex relationships and unmarried couples is not something to aspire to as a society

LolaSmiles · 05/04/2023 22:58

I do understand what she is saying and I accept her explanation for her phraseology

So you believe that a woman has the right to demand her husband supports her and the family financially on his own, regardless of his views on this?

You believe that a husband has a right to sex in a marriage?

The OP hasn't said some people mutuality agree to follow a traditional WOHP/SAHP model with dad working and mum staying home.

She's talking about women having the right to dictate their husband's financial responsibilities and men having the right to sex.