Why are gender roles viewed negatively?

[reddragon7]

I read and see so many threads and real life examples, where men and women feel the need to be “equal.” The man about to become a father, refuses to become the main earner, even when he has the means, and insists that his wife also work and contribute financially. Doesn’t this seem imbalanced to anyone, and that society is being brainwashed to accept this as the norm.

I have nothing against a woman wishing to work post-children, however, I don’t understand why society and some men put pressure on their wives to work, if she would rather stay home with the children. This has now become and expectation. If a woman is contributing financially, it is never really 50/50, as she is also doing most of the domestic work.

People condemn gender roles as though they are ancient, but seem to forget that, biologically and psychologically, women are naturally better caregivers to children. They are the ones pregnant, produce all these hormones, and better equipped to raise a child than a man. Of course, there are exceptions, but as a general fact, people seem to ignore this.

In view of all this, I believe more men should offer to be financial providers, giving women the option to not work after children, as childcare costs aren’t exactly saving them much anyway. Otherwise, it feels we are moving away from our gender roles, which may actually be more helpful in a marriage, than people make out.

Your entire argument is based on prejudice, informed by gender stereotypes that have no basis in reality. You haven't provided any evidence to back them up. Just that it's your opinion.

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion. But the rest of us are entitled to conclude that your opinion is just a load of silly nonsense based on empty stereotypes.

And why would I need evidence for my opinion. I posted asking for others opinions as I was genuinely curious. I even said I was going more on examples I’ve read on real life. What’s so wrong about my opinions - I even said if you someone else chooses a different arrangement, there absolutely fine. I just wanted a discussion as to why certain values are lost or not supported anymore.

It is negative because it is about more than the individual, it's about society as a whole and how gender roles are so ingrained that it is harmful to those who don't wish to follow gender roles. Women are often overlooked when it comes to career progression, the gender pay gap, the judgment women often face when they want to return to work and especially if it is after a short maternity leave.

Why shouldn't they? Because a vagina doesn't exempt you from working, because it is entitled and because no one has the right to demand that someone provide for them financially. Men also deserve a choice.

And why would I need evidence for my opinion.

When you start claiming your opinions are facts people will ask for evidence.

Well, you don't need to provide evidence of your opinions at all, as long as you're happy to accept that others are likely to dismiss those opinions as uninformed nonsense.

It's slightly ironic that you were demanding evidence from other posters to back up their points, which was duly provided, and yet you feel that you should be entitled to make claims based on your observations from "real life" without backing these up in any way. You seem to forget that many of us have experience of "real life" too - in many cases, significantly more experience than you, perhaps.

As to why the idea that men should provide and women should have the option of being supported to stay at home is no longer valued, I imagine it is because many men and women have reached the conclusion that there are better and fairer ways of organising family life between them that are beneficial to both parties. If individual couples both want to adopt the traditional model and can afford to do so, then there is nothing to stop them from doing this, but it's entirely right that both men and women should have the option of saying that isn't what they want. I'm not really sure why you would disagree with this. Your position seems to be that women should have a choice and that men should suck it up either way. That doesn't sound very fair to me at all, and that isn't the kind of imbalance that I would want to build a relationship on.

So, OP, statistically the happiest societies (esp for child mental health) are the Scandi ones in which both parents are supported to take parental leave, both parents are entitled to drop their hours to part time with young kids (eg entitlement to request a 6 hour day) and in which women have high levels of employment with high quality childcare. Why wouldn't you want to emulate that?

Truth is that a lot of women outside the middle classes have generally worked for large parts of history anyway, so you are talking about a bit of a middle class preoccupation with what our forbears did. But also, even for those women who didn't work historically, in the middle and upper "respectable" classes, those women were not massively more valued. Look at the more traditional societies in which women don't participate in paid work - they correlate with some pretty unfavourable practices and attitudes towards women, where the middle aged woman is the skivvy for her husband and then the skivvy for her own and her husband's aged parents - are these women highly valued and thought of for their sacrifice? Why not? Patriarchal values, that is why. Women should have choice, but I think you are kidding yourself that if all women stayed at home this would make women more appreciated and treated equally to men. Look at the threads on here in Relationships - there is basically one every day where a woman cannot leave her crappy husband for financial reasons.

I only asked for evidence from one poster who said their claim was a fact statistically or something, not demanding it from others. And credible evidence wasn’t even provided by anyone, everything has just been personal opinions, which is why I started this thread to begin with, to discuss viewpoints.

And yes, I do I hold the belief that it’s a right for wives, and was wondering why people seem to be against it.

And yes, I do I hold the belief that it’s a right for wives, and was wondering why people seem to be against it.

Wives in general? Or only wives with young children?
What about couples that aren't married?

I get what you are saying. I’m not saying all women have to stay at home. I just don’t think women shouldn’t be expected to take on financial burdens unless necessary, especially when they have children.

Honestly, yes - wives in general. I am not speaking for couples who are unmarried, but as a marital right - wives should have that security. That despite their own earnings/savings etc - they also have the right to be provided for. Of course, this depends on the man’s circumstances and affordability. But as a general perspective, I think this is a good thing.

women shouldn’t be expected to take on financial burdens unless necessary

Why?

Your ‘logic’ is baffling. Why on earth do you think half the human race shouldn’t be able to support themselves financially? Or do single women have to support themselves because they haven’t yet found someone with testicles to agree to slip a ring on their finger, which magically dissolves their ability to earn a living?

Women and men work together to make children so they should work together to raise the children

How they chose to do that should not be subject to arbitrary rules

What's the matter - does your husband want to share the financial responsibility?

Nope, as I said this situation doesn’t even apply to me. I am just genuinely interested in others perspectives in couples taking on traditional roles.

Honestly, yes - wives in general. I am not speaking for couples who are unmarried, but as a marital right - wives should have that security. That despite their own earnings/savings etc - they also have the right to be provided for. Of course, this depends on the man’s circumstances and affordability. But as a general perspective, I think this is a good thing.

Jeez. Okay.
Why though?

Why should women have an automatic right to be provided for financially by a man? Why is that a good thing?

Couples can take traditional roles

That should be a choice based on a full understanding of implications and full agreement

Those couples should not judge those who chose other paths

Those couples should understand that they are likely to be in a minority

Because I think, ultimately, women end up sharing most of the childcare and domestic load. They go through the effort of pregnancy and childbirth. Therefore, despite them having their own income, I think it’s fair to have financial rights for provision in marriage. Even if domestic and childcare duties are shared with their husbands,if their husbands earn enough, why not take on the responsibility - is all I wanted to know

As I have said, if others have a different arrangement, I am completely fine with this. Genuinely not my problem. Main thing is you are comfortable in whatever you decide. I simply wanted perspectives on why certain roles in marriages are losing value.

Domestic childcare and financial roles can and I believe should all be shared ( to make a harmonious home , to raise good children )

Why should the act of giving birth exempt the female from any of those ?

Are you from some sort of weird religious cult that dictates that men should be the breadwinners or something? Either that, or you're just winding us all up now.

The fact that you think this applies to "wives" in general, even when the biology of pregnancy and childbirth isn't a factor, makes you sound even more absurd than you did earlier.

Can you explain why you think that women - who may or may not have young children - should have the right to expect another adult to fund their lifestyle?

It is actually incredibly infantilizing towards women to suggest this. Why do you think that women shouldn't be expected to support themselves?

Many, many people have taken time to explain in detail why they disagree with you (women trapped in bad relationships, unable to return to the workforce, patriarchal societies generally being hostile to women to name a few reasons) but you don’t seem to be taking any of it on board, just repeating that “wives should have the right to be financially supported” and not actually explaining WHY beyond your own shallow and badly articulated opinions.

Studies and statistics show that this set up overwhelmingly does NOT help women - as someone else said, the scandi countries where equal parenting and equal participation in the workplace is normal are the happiest in the world, studies also show businesses do better with diverse workforces including women, and on the flip side, countries with fewer employment opportunities for women often have issues with things like access to education and healthcare for women too.

As for your response to same sex couples… I don’t even know where to start with that. If it’s okay for them to go 50/50, why not heterosexual couples? People’s sex and genitals don’t determine their personalities and values. Women are here in droves telling you we do not want traditional gender roles imposed on us and you don’t seem to be listening, and you’re unable to provide a concrete example of anything that backs up your opinions.

Well I suppose at least this does explain the high divorce rate.

if I were a man and my wife unilaterally decided she was going to give up work and expect me to support her indefinitely, I’d be out of there.

i can support myself, and see the kids on weekends. Better deal than staying in a marriage where I’m basically treated as the money tree.

Well, hopefully the OP has got the answer to her question now.

Traditional gender roles are "losing value" because most people think they're bollocks.

HTH

Can't you see though that it usually happens because that is what society expects from women? Not necessarily because women happen to be naturally better at it.

They go through pregnancy and childbirth because they want a baby. I don't think it should be used as a stick to beat men with, especially men who are willing to do their fair share. There's plenty out there.

Because I think, ultimately, women end up sharing most of the childcare and domestic load. They go through the effort of pregnancy and childbirth. Therefore, despite them having their own income, I think it’s fair to have financial rights for provision in marriage. Even if domestic and childcare duties are shared with their husbands,if their husbands earn enough, why not take on the responsibility - is all I wanted to know

There are lots of reasons. Many of which have been explained to you in this thread. However, you've not explained why you think this is a good thing? You talk about it being a right that women should hold but you've not sufficiently explained why it is beneficial.

And what about women who don't have children? Why should they have an automatic right to be provided for financially? If it's a reward for pregnancy/childbirth/childcare then why shoul