Is my husband right? Have we totally failed our son?

[givingupmum]

My son is 3 years and 5 months old, he is a difficult child. He has a lot of tantrums, he's very strong willed and kicks off easily and unfortunately one issue we have had with him is that he can be violent towards us. He went through biting stage, hitting stage etc and a very long phase of deliberately using his nails to scratch us which was horrible. He did it a lot. We got through all of these stages but he has moments where he will do them, mainly when he has a tantrum and totally loses control. We've been working on it, we had a baby recently which has caused some regression in his behaviour. We've had a few incidents lately of him being violent to us and he is quite volatile at the moment, we're constantly waiting for the next freak out.

As an aside he really can be a lovely boy. He does just have too many moments. I'm not blind to his flaws, I'm the main at home parent so I deal with the worst of it. Tonight my husband was putting him to bed and out of nowhere my son just started climbing all over him, when my husband said no he started trying to bite him and scratching him. My husband walked out and came downstairs and said that boy is vile, this behaviour is not normal, we've totally failed with him. He's a nasty piece of work.

I've totally had my moments where I've felt like this. It does make me so sad because I see other toddlers and kids his age and none of them seem to be like this, I don't have friends tell me how frequently their kids hurt them, it feels like it's just mine. But then I also see the progress, I see how much quicker he calms down, how he says sorry and that he loves us. I don't know if I'm being too soft. Is this totally abnormal? Is it time to consult a GP?

I don't want another toddler that hurts me. I don't want my baby to grow up seeing his brother do this and think it's ok. I feel really sad tonight.

It sounds like you're doing everything right. At 3.5 he is only just started to learn how to manage his feelings. The reason he acts up with you at home is because he feels safe with you and is able to show his feelings, even if the frustration is coming out in the wrong way at the moment.

Our daughter went through a really bad phase between 2.5-5; hitting, kicking and biting us when she was tired or upset. She is 5 now, in reception and it gradually got better. It's really rare now. Like yours, she was always fine at nursery too. She was just tired when she got home and in an environment where she felt comfortable showing her feelings, it all came out!

We found patience was the only thing that worked. We told her she couldn't hit/bite/kick because it hurt us, and stopped giving attention if she did. Then praised her for positive interactions. Really it was just a case of waiting it out until she had developed enough to be able to calm down and tell us what was wrong.

There's no harm in asking for a second opinion from a professional if you think it could be a sign of SEN or even just for more coping mechanisms, but you sound like you're a brilliant parent and doing your best to help your child.

Hi op. My dd turned like this when we had her sister. She was 5 at the time. It was bloody difficult.
What made a difference? Building up her self esteem and spending 1 to 1 time with her. Punishments did almost nothing because as you say, there was loss of control at the time.
I made a poster for above her bed listing everything wondeful about her in a heart. I made sure her father and I spent time with only her, not just out of the house, but in it. I made a reward chart where she'd get stars filling up a jar for all the good behaviour, kindness, helpfulness etc.not one where you take any away, with four targets throughout of things she wanted to do eg. Go plate painting, swimming with mummy etc.
It all stopped after about (sorry) a year. Doesnt happen at all now.
So it is a rare but not unique reaction to a sibling and tell dh h that calling him vile is going to push him further into it.

The problem here though is that he has to be developmentally able go understand the consequence and link it to his behaviour. If he is autistic, its highly likely he won't be able to do this at his age, so this parenting style will just make him feel more upset and angry and so make the behaviour worse. He sounds a lot like my son was and he is autistic with PDA. We didn't realise so tried neurotypical discipline techniques like the one described here, which just made everything so much worse for us all. In hindsight, he was just a very anxious little boy trying to control situations any way he could. When we feel like that, full of adrenaline, our fight flight or freeze response kicks in. His challenging behaviour was a direct result of his anxiety.
What we did? We took all demands away, asked how he was, and if he hit we just left the room until he calmed and then we talked about it. We read a lot of books and started exploring asd, which isn't a label by the way, its a diagnosis that can help people to understand your child and get the support they need. He's very clever now, 7, and finally starting to understand those causal links between actions and behaviour. After a terrible mainstream experience, he is at a nurturing special school and is learning how to regulate himself.
And yes, that is an awful thing for your DH to say but I see why he said it. The game changer for us was when we started seeing the behaviour as a meltdown due to overwhelm rather than a calculated act, your DS can't in that moment help it so your job is to keep everyone safe and then cuddle your DS after, then later on separately Talk to him about safe behaviour versus unsafe.

It sounds tough but it will pass. Is over tiredness playing a part? My son could be mental at bedtime, especially if we went away somewhere. He wanted attention to keep himself awake, any attention even shouting was fine.

He is the most gentle 10 year old you can imagine. He was quite deaf it turnout so communication took a bit longer (and when I shouted at him after he had grommets he cried because it was loud!)

I agree that ruling out potential issues is wise. I also think using your different approaches is sensible and you need to explain this to your husband. There's a point at which you've lost them at whatever you say makes no difference (like a tantrum). Trying to discipline while in the middle of it is futile.

In regard to leaving places, one thing that helped us was to explain in nice clear terms what was happening. If you are going to an attraction 'we will walk across this big car park and then we will stand in a queue to get it' (rather than 'yay we're going to the zoo - stage by stage).
We are leaving the park to have a picnic and a drink (small bribery is useful and you can just have your usual snack just in a different way).

But be consistent and if he doesn't do as asked just remove him calmly and keep repeating whatever it is you have said 'mummy said it is time to leave so we are going', ignoring the flailing limbs.

On a practical note, sneak in his room and cut his nails while he's sleeping.

The problem with chat forums for issues that matter is you get can get some really bad, well meaning (or sometimes not) advice. What works for one child doesn’t work for another and I hope you are taking from this thread that for every person who tells you it’s not normal another person is saying it is.

He is only a baby himself, learning to process emotions, communicate his needs and wants and has undergone two big changes lately - increased childcare and new sibling. What he needs is calm, consistent boundaries, lots of love and cuddles and it sounds like you are doing exactly that. Look for triggers - tiredness, hunger that you can manage and distraction techniques to avoid issues. With my DS for example (and still now at 10!) he needs clear countdown to leaving times, also when he was small it helped to talk about what happened after before we went. Eg ‘We’re going to the park and then after we are going to the shops to buy tea’ then when leaving the park instead of focusing on leaving it was ‘time for you to help mummy pick tea, will we have X or Y tonight?’

Naughty step, punishment and timeouts are outdated concepts (ELC settings would be closed for implementing) so try to avoid but personally sometimes it was needed so I could calm down (not DS).

No issues being raised by either childcare suggests this is within normal boundaries but talk to your health visitor or ask the nursery for strategies they use and trust your instincts. If nothing else you might get enough info to make sure you and DH are on the same page.

PS I’d also rehome the dog with the new baby you can’t guarantee to keep DS away from it.

I would start parenting him like he has ASD - it won't matter if he doesn't, it will just help him to cope while he is little.

Transitions - So he's struggling with leaving places, transitions are difficult when you've got ASD but with ds what made a huge difference was to give him a 10 minute/5 minute/2 minute warning before we were going to move on from an activity/leave home/leave the park etc. This allows him time to finish what he is doing and prepare mentally for the next thing.

Routine/structure - kids thrive on routine whether they have ASD or not, that is why they often do so well at nursery compared to home. Have a written routine for him for the day for you to refer to, eat at the same time, watch tv at the same time, read to him at the same time, go to the park for a walk at the same time, play with him at the same time. Have a routine and structure where he is kept occupied with one thing or another for most of the day and he will learn the routine over time and be calmer and happier. Obviously sometimes the routine is affected by something or an activity has to change - let him know in advance and remind him of the change a few times so he is prepared.

Behaviour/getting overwhelmed - Lots of praise for the behaviour you want, and lots of clear explaining of what you want him to do, expectations of behaviour, he may not know 'the right' way to do things so or what is expected of him in situations unless you explain clearly each time. He may become overwhelmed in certain situations - busy/loud especially if he is tired/hungry. Be aware of this and notice if he is becoming overwhelmed and leave, take bread sticks or a similar snack out.

Look very carefully at when he has meltdowns and what happens before them. Is he overwhelmed by something, is it when someone says no, is it when he is tired or hungry, is it when he's bored and looking for attention. At this age I wouldn't punish him with naughty step or whatever (it won't work with a child with ASD and is just hard work IMO). If he's having a tantrum because you've said no to something then try changing your language 'we can't have ice cream for breakfast but we can have some after dinner' instead of just a straight no. Allow him to let out the big emotions and tantrum - don't give it any more attention than 'when you are calmer we can talk about it', just carry on with whatever you are doing and then when he calms downs, have a cuddle talk about it, explain why he can't have icecream for breakfast and when he can and then move on.

If he is hurting anyone or anything then remove him from the situation while saying calmly but firmly 'we do not hurt other people or animals'. Once removed let him to tantrum and remind him 'we can talk about it when you are calm' then when he calms you can see if he can explain what was going on for him, that it's not ok to hurt people/animals and if he is frustrated/angry what he could do instead.

Good luck, stay calm, clear and consistent and he'll get there. Don't go down the punishing and punishing route though, you're right it won't help.

I agree with your husband. If all he gets is cuddles when he's been violent, he's going to feel like he's running the show. Instant consequences are needed. Biting and hitting is totally unacceptable and I'm sorry but if anyone bit me, they would definitely never do it again. You need to take back control.

Any other life changes?
He was born largely into a family unit in lockdown.
Some people have remained home working for the past 3 years.
My DD has very little memory of me going to work each day at all.

Has DS’s world changed significantly recently?

If all he gets is cuddles when he’s violets, then you’ve taught him that if he wants affection he should be violent. That seems pretty obvious to me. I missed that bit.

That's interesting, and very good that he is social and likes to be around other children. The fact he also well behaved around grandma makes me think the issue should be at home. He's propably seeking attention becouse of the new sibling? My nephew were horrible at hitting around the age of 2 when they moved home and started a nursery. My sister idea of dealing with it was to give a hug or pretend it didn't happen which made it worst. What do you do when he hits or scratches you?

www.amazon.co.uk/Little-Big-Feelings-Deb-Mills/dp/1543970028/ref=mp_s_a_1_14?adgrpid=134349326115&gclid=Cj0KCQiAgOefBhDgARIsAMhqXA7IWbW0syzr4S03TWMVa4tAy0uca8bo6TtUripTY0aMuI2yuKq0rgMaAnkqEALw_wcB&hvadid=606344914006&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=1007423&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=6904150885943489466&hvtargid=kwd-1057728673139&hydadcr=1074_2627733&keywords=big+little+feelings+book&qid=1677314532&sr=8-14

Deb mills has written some very good books to help them understand their emotions

@givingupmum DS was a very sensitive toddler and went through aggressive phases. He started school in September and they've been teaching him the zones of regulation and what he can do to get back to the green zone. It might be worth you starting this with your DS now to give him some coping strategies when he's feeling big feelings he doesn't understand yet. I've attached an example from Google but you can adapt it to fit your DS's needs

I wouldn’t take parenting advice from AIBU. This forum is full of the ‘punish them until they give up’ brigade and as you’ve found, that doesn’t work.

The approach you’ve been using recently sounds good. Keep reading high quality parenting books (some good recommendations here) I would also like the add The Whole Brain Child to the list. Talks about the psychology of behaviour, great book.

Give the books to your husband too. Good luck!

Zones of regulation is brilliant.
If it's meltdowns he's having, being there with support is really important. You teach violence is wrong by talking afterwards, not punishing the behaviour because he is not in control. It's very different to neurotypical parenting. Please don't punish him more, OP. Honestly, you'll be making it all worse if he is on the spectrum. Be sure to praise positive behaviour too and lots of cuddles when he's regulated.

It's tough, OP. We had one similar. I remember a parenting class where DH and I were asked to role-play a behaviour we found difficult to manage and when we went into shin kicking and biting mode, the Health visitor running the class told us off for being ridiculous and exaggerating. We weren't exaggerating at all.
It was a difficult journey, but focusing on the positive behaviour helped. Every bed time, I'd list the nice things I remembered her doing that day. Our DD was (still is) hyper competitive, so encouraging her to feel she could 'win' on being nice helped to stop her try to win on being physically dominant.
Also, as others have said, tag team. When it gets too much for one parent, the other parent takes over. And don't take offence if DH vents feelings of frustration. Would you rather he bottled it up, or vented outside your family unit? When things are tough, you need to be able to talk about it with someone who really understands the situation. But also, now you have a younger kid, don't fall into the trap as they grow up of you being older DC's person because DH can't cope with him. Strict 50/50 of which parent deals with which child (when you're both doing 1 on 1), or older DC will twig, feel rejected, and that'll make things way worse.
Lots of organised team sport also helped channel our DD's aggression as soon as she was old enough.
She's now in her 20s and (mostly) a real asset to society. No violent tendencies (although she can be pretty rude when she loses her temper).

Do NOT allow your dog to be hurt by your son. That is completely unacceptable.

You are doing the best you can.
You need to look into what is he telling you with his anger or violent. Children tend to mirror their parents hidden emotions. There is certainly the whole family system to look into, its not just the child.

Your husband sounds like the problem. Your son's behaviour sounds pretty normal for a three year old. You're not failing him. His brain isn't yet developed enough to regulate his emotions.

My husband walked out and came downstairs and said that boy is vile, this behaviour is not normal, we've totally failed with him. He's a nasty piece of work.

The nasty piece of work here is your husband.

Your son is not vile. He's a young child who's clearly at the more challenging end of the behavioural spectrum. It's definitely worth asking your GP /HV if you think there's more to it than "bad behaviour", but some children are just more difficult than others, and they turn into perfectly nice and well balanced adults. Your husband, however, needs to get a grip, because if he said anything like that in your son's hearing, it is verbal and emotional abuse.

Oh come off it, not everyone's life is the same. Stop judging someone just because you were oh holy enough not to lose your shit like OPs partner.

There's nothing holy about not calling your own child "vile", @IWineAndDontDine

When DS was a similar age, he started getting quite aggressive, kicking and hitting. We couldn't work it out, then I realised he was watching Power Rangers on TV (nearly 20 years ago ) and was essentially copying their fighting, although to me it seemed OK because noone got hurt, he just picked it up. I stopped the Power Rangers, and he stopped being aggressive. No idea if this could be relevant to you, but might we worth a thought.

I’ve called my son all sorts of terrible names behind his back when he’s been pissing me off. Toddlers can be total twats. It’s normal to get fed up and say things about them. 🤷‍♀️ it’s venting.

People are being very precious about what the husband said, a man who was clearly at the end of his rope at the time.

OP I'm sorry if I've misunderstood your answer about your dog, but it seems to me that everyone else has... you responded to the question about your oh, 'how is he with the dog?' with 'he can be really mean to the dog' (sorry I don't know how to quote it). Did you mean your DH can be mean to the dog? That was my take from it. Everyone else is seeing that it's your DS who is mean to the dog... Obviously if it is your DS then you do need to be very careful, and possibly rehome or keep apart. However, if it is your DH then this should be taken as a red flag, imo. He seems to think that strong discipline and punishment is how to treat people/animals who aren't 'behaving'? 'Being mean' is simply wrong and NOT ok.

You have some great advice here, and hopefully your DS will grow out of it. A friend of mine has a son like this but he didn't, she learnt a lot about ASD and has finally managed to get him diagnosed (paid for private assessment) and they're now on a better road.

Venting is fine. I vented several times a day when my youngest was a teenager. However, I didn't vent in anyone else's hearing. Telling their child's mother that the child is "vile" makes him the vile one.