Are there any absoute rights and wrongs in parenting?

[seeker]

Apart from bottom line safety issues?

I have been thinking about this because I consider myself by nature a relativist, and the mumsnet consensus is to end most discussions with something like "each to their own".

But I was on a thread recently when I felt very strongly that someone's viewpoint was just wrong. Not a different point of view, but wrong. And I said so - expecting to be flamed - but somewhat to my chagrin I was reminded of my insignificance by being ignored!

So, are there any parenting issues that people feel are absolutely right or wrong - or is everything except basic safety things like car seats and smoking over babies heads and not leaving your valium open in the cot a matter of opinion?

I think if parents can just strive to Be Kind to their children, everything else is just detail.

Great post a while back by cory.

Very interesting debate. I suppose my absolute would be to recognise your mistakes, apologise and move on and try your utmost not to repeat the mistake. None of us are perfect parents and whoever made the point that different children require different strategies was spot on.

No it made me into a hard working, respectful, self suffient adult who has never been in trouble never taken drugs never stolen a car or stole from shops and able to hold there own. I think some of you need to go and have that plug removed from your arse...so far up it!!!

Trouble is, Bitcat, it's really hard to discuss things if you're going to be abusive - I really think your last post was uncalled for.

For the record, I think you sound like a great mum - I just can't see why you need to smack your children - they sound fab. Can you make me understand? What was the last thing you had to smack over?

Anyway i am leaving now, i have more important things to do, such as loving my children and putting the tea on, i don't need to be lectured on parenting, my eldest 9.5 he's a very sensible normal kid who really doesn't need much disapline any more because he knows how to be behave if he wants to keep his tv in his room and go out with friends, so if i'm going wrong why is he and my other children so fantastic!!!!

I have had to join in this one to stick up for BITCAT. Can we not just assume that the 'really bad parents' (e.g regular or arbitrary beatings with implements, sexual intercourse with their own children, locking children in dark sheds etc) are VERY few and far between? We could therefore hold on to a much more positive and supportive view that the VAST majority of parents are absolutely good enough, and are certainly better than anything else on offer (state-run orphanage anyone?). It seems to me that those who are so keen to elide the distinction between smacking and abuse are actually desperately trying to cling onto some kind of moral certainty and in so doing, contributing to a very destructive culture of parenting, where we are all out to prove ourselves right by looking for the wrong in other people.
Give me BITCAT as a friend any day!

I think I need to stand up for myself as the thread-starter here. I wasn't intending to put anyone down, or prove myself right by looking for the wrong in others. What I was wondering was - are there absolute rights and wrongs - not just shades of opinion in parenting. I agree that the vast majority or parents are doing a brilliant job in often difficult circumstances. And I am aware that I have sometimes done a less than brilliant job in very easy circumstances.

It's turned into a thread about smacking, which BITCAT chose to join and contribute vociferously to. I don't think she is very interested in listening to anyone else's point of view - she is as sure she is right to smack as I am sure she is wrong. The difference is, I was prepared to listen and I wasn't abusive as far as I know. A debate is only a debate if people are prepared to listen to each other, not just shout.

I really don't agree with you JustGet.

I don't think I am eliding the line between, say state-run orphanages and smacking. I am arguing that it is wrong. Not as wrong as sexual abuse or orphanages, but nevertheless wrong. Bitcat is saying it is right. I am disagreeing with her. That neither makes me up my own arse, or contributing to a destructive culture etc.

By all means choose BITCAT as friend, however, I am certain that in all other respects she is an excellent person who obviously cares. Nevertheless I strongly disagree with her defence of smacking.

LOLOLOLOLOL at character traits such as curiosity and impetuousness can be overcome by methods of parenting

I think luck of the draw plays a large part in whether a toddler will shove his fingers in a socket or not.

It's how you deal with the situation that is important - not that it happens in the first place. Surely that's obvious?

Onebatmother and Seeker - perhaps we could make an appointment for an 'expert' to come and evaluate your various parenting 'techniques' with the same degree of certainty and vitriol that you are prepared to dole out to BITCAT. The great thing about BITCAT is that she is getting on with confidently bringing up her children and clearly enjoying the process! It seems to me that you two are more concerned with what others might be up to than just getting on with enjoying your own children.

I am sorry to be abusive but it really bugs me that you don't know me or my family or my children, my hv has always seen me as a great mum, she knows that i smack but she knows that it does work for me and that the children are well cared for and loved and i have always done my best for them bf all of them, never ever gave them juice in a bottle, always had them onto a cup before they were 1yr and always clean and tidy and very healthy!! Look at my profile picture do they not look happy to you!!! I think the last time i smacked was about 2-3weeks ago it was on the way home from school and my 6yr old decided to run off to far and my rule is if you can't see mummy then you have gone to far, i caught up to her and asked her to hold on to the pushchair as she was running off, she said no and continued to try to run. So at that point i said put your hand on this pushchair or i shall smack your bottom..she continued to ignore me so i smacked her bottom, this snapped her out of it, she then complied with my request and we carried on home..,it doesn't happen often but in this situation i would rather have her get a smack or go too far and end up being snatched or anything could happen to her!!! See i don't do it for the hell of it, it's getting now so i only need to do it 1/2 a month and when she has her own room when we move, i will be able to bring in a whole new set of sanctions which will make it even less so..i will avoid it if i possibly can!!!! I'm always open to ideas that i haven't tried and have taken lots of advice from hcp and other mums, some off them work sometimes and sometimes not!!!!

OH Justgetonwithit did you read the op? That is precisely what this thread is about. We have all, further up the thread, said that we fail, frequently, as parents. But the thread is about sticking your neck out when you encounter things that you believe are Wrong (if you have any). The conversation turned to smacking as potentially being one of those things, then Bitcat arrived defending smacking quite vociferously. There is no mystery or surprise in the fact that seeker and I told her, in no uncertain terms, that we don't agree, that we think smacking is damaging and wrong, and that we can easily pick holes in her defensive reasoning.

Bitcat has hardly been backward in coming forward, either.

Justgetonwithit thank you, i love my children my friends my dh and generally!! I did not say that anyone else was wrong, all i said is it doesn't always work for me....great that it works for everyone else. I think to judge people solely on the fact that they smack there children is just wrong!! There is more to it!!! I know some really terrible mums that do smack, for the littlest thing and all the time...i know an equal amount that don't smack and they aren't great either and i also know some that are fantastic kids and have never needed a smack which is equally good.....whatever we think all we can really do that is truly great is to love our children as much as we possibly can as they won't be kids forever!!!

I agree. And I suspect you might have a much nicer time bringing up your children with an attitude like that than some of the more 'up-tight' posters on here who seem to think that having kids is an opportunity to write THE book on the best way to raise children! They are doomed to guilt when they stray from their own self-imposed strictures.

Justgetonwithit - please direct me to my vitriol! If I've spilt any I would like to mop it up as quickly as possible!

Justgetonwithit - have you actually read the OP?

or maybe we won't stray from our own self-imposed strictures not to hit our kids! Who knows?

Lots of love to ya, there is no rule book to bringing up children..wish you all luck with yours i'm just about done so i'm gonna have a bite to eat before picking my little darlings up....

I am really looking forward to spending time with them and playing games and do lots of art work next week whilst they are off school i can't wait till friday....

Hmm, what an interesting 'debate' you seem to want seeker and onebatmother, one where the apparently open-ended discussion of different ways of bringing up kids turns into an opportunity to castigate the one poster brave (and honest) enough to say that she thinks smacking can have its place in the context of normal family life for 'deliberately instilling fear' into her children. You are disingenuous and you know it! You don't want a debate, you want to confirm your prejudices and flex your moral muscles. Anyway, that's enough from me. I have never posted on Mumsnet before, I just couldn't bear to think that BITCAT would assume that your claim to speak for the whole thread and to make her out to be some kind of child-abusing freak was a view that everyone shared. She is normal and has a healthy outlook that is shared by most of the parents I know, you two are self-righteous twits!

Oooops. Don't know what to say, actually. I can only assume that you haven't read the thread at all.

Go Girl, well you read my mind!! I just didn't quite no how to put it!!!! Normal is the key word!!! And i think my children are turning out just fine...hope you and yours are doing ok also!!!

Not disingenuous in the slightest - the thread is specifically about whether one should mince words and say 'each to her own' when one comes across something one thinks is wrong.

FFS, bitcat has given as good as she gets, and has not really engaged with any of the arguments against smacking, beyond protesting that she loves her kids and is a good mother, everyone says so.

She hasn't engaged at all with the possibility that she can teach her child to avoid danger/ behave well, without smacking them.

I still, therefore, think she is wrong, and while I'm sorry if her feelings have been hurt (though I suspect she is ramping that up, rather) I really don't think that it's fair to expect me to stop telling her that, and giving my reasons, if she continues to tell me that she is right.

Fine, it's really up to you I suppose if you want to go through life telling off adults as well as children. Perhaps you could design a really, really big naughty step for all the nasty, horrid parents who to sit on!

Why are you so angry?