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Are there any absoute rights and wrongs in parenting?

586 replies

seeker · 05/02/2008 10:27

Apart from bottom line safety issues?

I have been thinking about this because I consider myself by nature a relativist, and the mumsnet consensus is to end most discussions with something like "each to their own".

But I was on a thread recently when I felt very strongly that someone's viewpoint was just wrong. Not a different point of view, but wrong. And I said so - expecting to be flamed - but somewhat to my chagrin I was reminded of my insignificance by being ignored!

So, are there any parenting issues that people feel are absolutely right or wrong - or is everything except basic safety things like car seats and smoking over babies heads and not leaving your valium open in the cot a matter of opinion?

OP posts:
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DrLurker · 16/02/2008 02:19

have to say I am in agreement with scaryteacher about the bullying on MN (in general, not just on this thread)

and usually from people who are claiming moral high ground of some kind. They seem to forget they are talking to people with feelings whom they do not actually know.

Surely we can disagree without resorting to jeering and ridiculous assumptions about the quality of parenting on the basis of a few posts?

FairyMum · 16/02/2008 06:58

Scaryteacher, you have posted so much about problem-children who have lacked firm discipline. You can hardly blame people for pointing out that YOU are the one with a child with a tantrum at the age of nearly 8, the only way you could see to deal with his tantrum was to smack him and you could not even get him to apologise to the lady who was hurt? See, I cannot remember when my children misbehaved in public, but its going back to toddler-age.My approach to discipline is totally different from yours and in fact I loath the word "discipline",but obviously it has worked.

I did offer alternatives in my previous post, but if you are asking for alternatives this far down the line in parenting then it really just proves my point that smacking is ignorant and lazy parenting!

bb99 · 16/02/2008 10:21

Scaryteacher - big rounds of support here and I know you don't need me to defend you. You seem to be catching unnecessary and unwarranted flack...quite unpleasant and not what I expected from people on here especially when I read the front cover of the site before signing up, about tolerance towards others' views and opinions...

Why this has got so personal is beyond me and does seem to be bullying - maybe that's the kind of discipline you should have used?? Consistent and extended verbal chagrin instead of the smack, with a dose of moral high ground? (really cut your child down to size!)

OK disagree, but why so personal? Fairymum - agree to disagree, this is an argument that cannot be 'won'.

According to you my mum and dad were guilty of 'ignorant and lazy parenting' . NOTHING could be (and still is - they're A1 Gparents) further from the truth. For a start dad worked 40 years in a job he hated in a factory to make sure we had all the material things we needed, to the point of working overtime every Sat am, then came home to grow our food in the garden plus spend TIME with us to talk to us and listen to us...Oh and then there were the AMAZING school run holidays they sent me and siblings on so we could have a wide and eye opening life experience (as we couldn't afford to go as a family), while they had a weekend break at my Aunty's house once a year, plus the wonderful visits they took us on to theaters, museums, castles, stately homes, gardens, relatives...the things they did for me and my bro are endless, to the point where we were the first children in our extended family to get degrees and go to university - 3 generations ago we were landless peasants, docking our fetlock to the landlord and being sent into service at their behest, look at what our parents did for us - too simplistic to just link the two, bad parenting isn't about the occasional slap IMO and experience.

My poor dad resorted to slapping me around the face on 4 occasions when I was an early teenager. I can only remember being smacked before that on 1 occasion. I had been utterly VILE in the moments before he slapped me and TBH I deserved the slaps as all the reasoning in the world wasn't working at that time. He's an amazing dad and has always been supportive, listened, spent TIME with me and brother and forgiven us for growing up to be ourselves (he never demanded that we become certain people, only that we become ourselves and as happy as possible). The slaps were warranted and appropriate and I'm glad he cared enough to do what was needed at the time (his dad and mum had overused physical and mental punishment and he'd wanted to never slap - but needs must on occasions).

Maybe the difference is (OK a slap is a slap for the never go there brigade) he used it as a last resort. Smacking often seems to be used to describe systematic violence towards children which I think we all agree is WRONG! This can often be combined with generalized neglect, so children feel worthless. Or when smacking is used as a FIRST resort for any kind of misdemeanor, even just being a child.

And what's wrong with the word discipline? Everyone needs to be self disciplined otherwise nothing would ever happen, no buses, no trains, no jobs, no economy...

ST - big support from a child whose own parents were 'ignorant and lazy'...

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

scaryteacher · 16/02/2008 11:09

Fairymum, how nice for you to live in an ivory tower and to believe that you alone possess the moral high ground. I do so hope that real life doesn't come along and puncture the balloon of smugness in which you have so evidently cocooned yourself. I offered the example of smacking my DS because I realise that parenting isn't an exact science, it is trial and error. Also because what works with one child does not work with another.

I did not say anywhere I believe that I could not see other ways of dealing with his tantrum...I could have taken him out of the store; bribed him to be quiet by buying him what it was I was saying no to; what I was not going to do was try to have a reasoned conversation with a 7 year old who had worked himself up into a tizzy because he couldn't get his own way. He shoved the trolley, it hit an elderly lady and I smacked him. End of story. I did not try to get him to apologise to the lady, as it would have been counter-productive. I really do not feel that you know enough about my son or the situation in the shop to comment. Just as teachers have different sanctions available to them, so do parents, and that is the one I chose to use. I was interested to see what alternatives you would come up with as you seemed to very keen to criticise, but not to offer practical advice,(apart from read a book or look at MN) which always appears to me to be the mark of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about, but is always eager to put their oar in. My parenting is fine TYVM, and I am neither ignorant nor lazy about the subject.

You are very lucky that yours have not misbehaved in public since they were little, most children in my experience do misbehave in public, even in 'nice middle class areas' like the one that you inhabit,especially when their parents aren't looking. What you might perceive as not misbehaving may have others wishing you'd take your children home. It's a matter of perception isn't it?

It's a shame you loathe the word discipline as it has different meanings, and it is important. However, if children don't have it, and it is not there as they approach teenagerdom, which I suppose is a way off for yours, then there will be difficult times for them ahead. They have to have discipline to get through GCSEs and to hit their coursework deadlines; to avoid the pitfalls of drinking; to not get into the drugs crowd....and there IS such a crowd at every secondary school, state and private; if girls, to avoid the teenage pregnancy trap. They will need discipline for A-levels and especially at uni when off the leash for the first time.

What I mean by discipline is DH and I having and giving to DS a set of values that work for us, and a clear understanding of the consequences of making what we would consider to be the wrong choices. No parent is perfect, and we all make different choices about how we parent depending on our mores (the customs and conventions embodying the fundamental values of a group) and our circumstances.

I would recommend for you a good dose of tolerance and perhaps try to put yourself in others shoes for once. I am lucky like you, I have a comfortable life and time since I have moved abroad to post on forums like this. What would you do about the impoverished divorced mum who works all hours god sends to not claim benefits and whose children are beginning to play up in public, and she smacks a bottom. Get Social Services round? Intervene and tell her off? Unless you have developed some kind of omniscience that the rest of us would love to know about, and you know ALL the circumstances about EVERYONE'S lives then all you can do is offer your opinion and not be judgemental about other's actions. I don't judge your form of parenting, however I don't think it would be robust enough for my DS.

I have posted about out of control kids, because I have spent much of my time as a teacher dealing with this, and cases of neglect and sexual abuse so bad that it nearly broke my heart.As bb99 pointed out, this is what's really important, that we try to put it right for these kids, and stop them going on the scrap heap and society getting worse; not the fact that I smacked DS on the bottom in Waitrose once. You need to see the big picture, not just some of the minute detail. Perhaps you should go and work in a large comprehensive school and you could see the reality that a lot of these students have to deal with. It might put a lot of things into context for you. Like lots of teachers I know who are parents, we go with what works for us with our children, but we don't judge others style of parenting, as we see every day that there are a myriad of different styles out there, and that they all to some extent work.

DrLurker and bb99 thanks for your support...I am glad that there are other people with a common sense view of the world out there!

bb99 · 16/02/2008 11:16

Hear hear ST!

scaryteacher · 16/02/2008 11:24

bb99, I used a smack to defuse the situation, and it worked. End of situation in supermarket, and a telling off all in one. Quiet conversation the next day about how it would feel to have a trolley shoved into your heels. Having grown up being verbally abused, I do not use that particular form of discipline on my son as I know how long it takes to rebuild self esteem and confidence after listening to unconstructive criticism for much of your life. We seem to agree on the fact that sometimes 'tough love' is necessary. Thank you for your supportive post.

pagwatch · 16/02/2008 11:40

God what a thread .
Haven't read such nasty, bitchy, and unpleasant postings for quite a long time. all in the name of posturing as the better parent . And the 'well said - good point' type posts after each bit of nastiness are a particular low.
Well done all

Pan · 16/02/2008 11:50

If I may interupt the mud-slinging for one moment?
Parenting as a practice often isn't left to personal choice and "common sense" as posters have suggested. It is most moulded by your experience of being parented. This is esp. true if g/parents are around, as the result is to 'remind' the new parents in how to raise children.
I was smacked as a child and even then saw the grossness of it.

To deliberately inflict pain on another loved one is utter anathama to me.

That is a string feeling that informs a practice. I don't expect everyone to agree with this - they obv. don't >, but neither do I wish to be told I live in an ivory tower as I don't smack. Dd is a beautiful, v. well-mannered creature. Now need for any ivory towere here.

Pan · 16/02/2008 11:51

as well as string feelings, I also have strong feelings........

Pan · 16/02/2008 12:02

and scaryteacher - I am soo not a "guardianista" or middle class last time I looked. Okay with you?

scaryteacher · 16/02/2008 12:29

Pan, the ivory tower wasn't directed at you, but at Fairymum. You choose not to smack, I did. Different strokes for different folks.

I was consistently verbally abused and belittled by my Dad until I left home, and even during my 20s and 30s as well. I would have in all honesty preferred a smack when I was younger, as then the situation would have been over and done with, not harped on about for weeks on end.

I think that parenting is a hard job, with a myriad of different approaches...what works for some won't work for others, as the children in question are different...what has astounded me are some of the snap judgements made on here by people whom I thought were supposed to offer support, advice and different points of view, not condemnation.

The middle class thing was raised by Fairymum, not me...class doesn't really matter, I thought we lived in a meritocracy now. Glad you're not a guardianista,could never see the point of that paper myself!

FairyMum · 16/02/2008 19:09

Scaryteacher, if you don't want to discuss smacking then you should perhaps not be on this thread? I am sure you are aware that MN has many heated discussions and people are free to voice their opinions. It's not just about support and I think this thread is a discussion thread and not a support thread.

Just to clarify, I said smacking is lazy and ignorant parenting. It doesn't necessarily mean I think the parents are lazy and ignorant, but I think their use of and belief that smacking works is lazy and ignorant. I think its short-term parenting and I think more gentle and thought-out appraches take a lot more effort, but you also get a lot more back from your child.

A lot has been written about the lack of discipline of children these days and how they grow up to become problem-children. I don't think the problem is that children and not smacked anymore, but rather that parents don't spend time talking and listening to their children and combined with smacking and shouting at them this is a lethal combination. That is my daily mail contribution for today anyway.....

Think I am leaving this thread now and retreating back to my ivory tower!

scaryteacher · 16/02/2008 20:13

I don't mind discussing smacking at all, and am aware that it is a discussion thread. I was just amazed by the rather dogmatic approaches by people on here, who don't discuss but dictate.

The point is Fairymum, that lots of parents don't have the luxury of time or the energy to have a gentle and thought out approach to their children. Their lives are so rushed that if they are getting home in time to feed their children and read to them before bedtime they're doing well, and sometimes the stress of parenting gets to them, especially when they have a huge age gap between their children. I've often sat at parents evenings trying to talk to parents about their year 10, whilst their 3 year old plays around their ankles, and generally plays up.They often arrive late as they are struggling to juggle childcare and jobs, and yes, they snap sometimes.

I totally agree that people need to spend more time talking and listening to their kids, but for some that time just isn't there. I also don't think you can equate smacking with ignorance. I know some highly qualified academics who smack their children occasionally, having tried the gentle approach. You need different approaches for different children as they don't all fit into one mould, or all respond to the same tactics.

We'll have to agree to disagree, and I'll go and do the Telegraph crossword.

bb99 · 17/02/2008 22:14

fairymum - yes all have a right to their own opinions and to voicing them, but insulting someone's parenting skills because you disagree with their opinion or actions is unnecessary and just plain wrong (IMO).

This is an emotive subject, so of course people will get passionate but why make it so personal...You can disagree with actions and opinions without making it personal, so why do that?

Pan it was my face that got smacked and I'm fine with that as it taught me (in MY situation) to be a better and kinder human being and not such a stroppy monster. I love and respect my parents, they're great people and have and do always support me - I was utterly obnoxious at that moment in time and fully deserved the consequences! Believe me I had more than inflicted pain on my parents at that moment...you're right about how parenting develops and all people have different experiences some people who were smacked as children will (rightly for their situ) find it horrifying and others won't.

ST - enjoy the crossword.

FairyMum · 18/02/2008 09:13

Oh please bb99,smacking is a a personal and emotive issue. Posters here are posting about specific situations where they have smacked, so I am responding to their posts. I think smacking is bad parenting and I am hardly alone thinking that judging from this thread. And it is mainly the pro-smackers making this personal and coming up with various anecdotes.

I find it so sad that you think you deserved to be smacked in the face? Children are so loyal to their parents. Even seriously abused children will often stay loving and loyal to their parents. That's why we as parents have such a huge responsibility to act our age. We are the adults and we should be able to bring up our children without hitting them. If we can't, then I would say you have failed in a big way. Find it offensive if you like, but that is my opinion.

SheherazadetheGoat · 18/02/2008 09:22

this thread should just be called 'license to judge part 23456'

and in that vein i would like to add smacking is shite.

MrsMattie · 18/02/2008 09:23

Is this still going on? Jeez.

bb99 · 18/02/2008 11:58

fairymum...

all opinions are valid, different strokes for different folks. You so don't need to pity me, make this a personal attack or find my folks wanting - you don't know them, me, or any full details of the situations described.

I don't mind that you HATE smacking - that's fine and a very lovely point of view if it works for you, I'm just finding it difficult to understand why there seems to be such a need to vindicate the point by belittling other's situations and life stories/styles. If I was feeling sensitive I could read your last post and think you were implying that my parents were child abusers! and I'm not entirely sure you meant that?!*

Ironically it's actually the vitriolic point proving (and I've done my share here - for the shame of it... ) that is quite extraordinary.

I think we all agree that the following are important in childrearing

  1. CONSISTENT and REASONABLE rules and boundaries
  2. CONSISTENT and REASONABLE sanctions (discipline) and rewards.
  3. Being as equal to siblings as is possible (no - I can't give my DS 11 dedicated years of 1:1 parenting as his sister exists...)
  4. Loads of love and understanding for our (very individual) children
  5. Support of other parents - if we really disagree with something, eg smacking, finding a way of helping them to help themselves, other than vilifying them and condemning them.
  6. ENABLING our children to become the best that they can be.
  7. Having 2 parents who will love and support them even if those parents can't live together (before the backlash I know (from xp) that it takes TWO adults to do this and it isn't always easy)

and I have found there are many different shades of grey in life.

Basically providing for the different levels of maslovs (I think) triangle...

Some people will find smacking unbelievable, as I find smoking in pg unbelievable, but at the end of the day non of us are omnipotent, or GOD, or perfect, and I'm sure you would be the first to agree that there are things in your life as a parent that you would have changed. We all would - it's the really scary parents who tend to think that they've done everything perfectly!

Mrsmattie, you're so right, Apologies to anyone that I may have offended with my defensive posts. The teacher thing really gets to me tho!

FairyMum · 18/02/2008 12:39

You don't have to be perfect not to smack you know. How strange that you think it so difficult not to smack, you think mothers who don't smack must be perfect.

Karen999 · 18/02/2008 12:43

ooh, if thats the case then I must be perfect

lollipopmother · 19/02/2008 13:32

I am quite shocked, coming into this thread at the last minute, that anti-smackers (of which I suppose I am one, although for a different reason than anyone on this thread has mentioned) have clamoured for evidence from the pro-smackers (bad word as not many of the people who smack have actually said they think it's great) that what they are doing is right, but when someone asked Fairymum to highlight what she would've done in such a situation as the Waitrose incident she can come up with nothing. Well she came up with' my kid wouldn't have done that' or 'look in a book, I don't need to tell you'. These are massive cop outs imo, you don't want to answer because you are worried your argument will be picked to pieces. Also, can anyone really say that their child wouldn't do such a thing as the Waitrose incident due to your parenting style, or because of their personality? Some children are easier than others. It is easy for a parent of a child that doesn't have the personality to argue or be mean to others to pass aspersions on others' parenting styles, because really, they've never been tested, and never will be.

It's a shame that the thread lead to some very nasty comments from the anti-smackers, the two teachers have put their points across in very well written posts that come across as educated and not in the slightest bit rude, but the same can?t be said for some of the other posts in the last three pages, and it?s such a shame.

As an aside, I made a thread last night about whether the Supernanny approach was firm enough because I'd like to get some books so that I fully understand all the principles by the time my child is that age (about 2 years) and I was basically told that I was a prat for worrying about parenting and should actually be worrying on labour instead, and that I'd just pick it up as I go along. I was amazed at that. I am, in my heart, pro-smacking, but I don't WANT to do that, I want to learn everything there is to know, so that I never have to feel like I need to do that, and yet I'm still ridiculed. Everyone has different personalities, I am loving and fiercely loyal, any of my friends and family would say that, but equally I can be fiery and I can't say unequivocally that I'll never smack, because I just don't know, but it must be nice to be so placid that you can just let everything roll off you.

Squiffy · 19/02/2008 16:47

lollipop, there is a book called 'unconditional parenting' that will give you plenty of food for thought - it goes very much against the supernanny approach (which has been criticised for (a) not working very well in the long run and (b) some pysychologists argue that this makes children feel they need to 'earn' their parents approval and love). here is an interesting thread about people's views on the 'unconditional' form of parenting. The OP started out quite negative and ended up trying it out and having really good results.

lollipopmother · 19/02/2008 17:14

Squiffy - thank you, I've started reading that thread and I definitely need to read that book before I f*ck up at this parenting lark, rather than after!

FairyMum · 20/02/2008 12:28

Lollipop, No, I am not worried my argument would be picked to pieces. I did say what I would have done in the Waitrose-incident:

"In the trolley-waitrose scenario I would have told my child off and asked him or her to personally go up and apologise to the lady who had been hurt. I think this would have taught them a lot more and it takes a lot more courage to apologise to people than to receive a smack on the bum."

There are lots of alternatives to smacking. If you want to find out it really is easily available to you. I always try to understand why my children are acting like they are. Most of the time there is a reason and we can talk about what happened. I also recommend afie kohn. And remember YOU are the adult and the parent. Its really your job to find ways to treat your child with more respect also when he or she is playing up and driving you insane.

Greensleeves · 20/02/2008 12:36

Good work Fairymum and Pan

[too battle-fatigued to wade in]