Are there any absoute rights and wrongs in parenting?

[seeker]

Apart from bottom line safety issues?

I have been thinking about this because I consider myself by nature a relativist, and the mumsnet consensus is to end most discussions with something like "each to their own".

But I was on a thread recently when I felt very strongly that someone's viewpoint was just wrong. Not a different point of view, but wrong. And I said so - expecting to be flamed - but somewhat to my chagrin I was reminded of my insignificance by being ignored!

So, are there any parenting issues that people feel are absolutely right or wrong - or is everything except basic safety things like car seats and smoking over babies heads and not leaving your valium open in the cot a matter of opinion?

imaginaryfriend - I think that "consistent" parenting is quite easy to grasp, but "benign" a lot harder - where do you draw the line? Some people think giving children a large chocolate cake every day is benign and others think it's harmful.

Oh yes, I see what you mean Seeker. The thing about parenting is that there is often a lot of ego and insecurity wrapped up in how people do things isn't there? So declaring something as an absolute wrong, is rarely helpful

In the case of your friend - is really relevant to the situation that you think she shouldn't smack her child? No, not really. Do you think it is a damaging situation for the child and you'd like to see it changed? Arguably, yes.

So in that case you saying 'this isn't really working is it? I think you should find some other ways of dealing with your dc? There are some long-term affects to smacking you know. Why not try XYZ' is more likely to make the prevailing smacking stop than you making a VOLUBLE declaration of what you consider a wrong.

Or is that just a fudge?

I don't think I'm talking about what I teach my own children or my parenting . I'm pretty clear about that. I think I'm being exercised by how far it's acceptable to challenge others. Onebat's story is a case in point. I think what she did was brilliant - and I think perhaps we should do that sort of thing more often. But we don't because 'each to their own." etc.....

fudge IMO

people who are already using violence as a means of expressing their own anger are unlikely to be responsive to gentle persuasion

and it does the bastards no harm at all to know that normal people think their behaviour is disgusting.

But in other situations I do say things, I think. I mean I tell teenagers not to swear when I'm with the dcs. I don't think it's wrong to swear per se - I'm just bossy. [hugs a hoody]

Ah. But is it going to do any good?

I think people are quick to say 'That's wrong' and That's Disgusting and That Should Never Be Allowed.

I don't think it helps the person who is being told. I don't think it is constructive or helpful.

I haven't been put on the spot with someone I know, yet, Seeker, re: smacking. That would be difficult. Can only imagine stating my own beliefs very firmly and thus telling them by default that they are wrong.

In a MN situation, is it not simply a case of girding one's loins, drawing oneself up to full height, taking deep deep breath, and telling oneself that being liked isn't the most important thing?

I see parenting as an on-going project - it never stops and it's never quite the same job from one child to the other, and from one day to the other. My viewpoint as to 'right and wrong' changes too. You have to go with the flow in a sense.

I think the 'moral cowardice' lies in saying 'this is right and I will never deviate' because actually that is easier than being organic in your attitudes. Bringing up human beings is bloody hard and stating that anything 'is always wrong' is setting yourself up for a fall. No-one needs to be made to feel a failure because of one mistake - that applies to parents as well as children.

totally agree with gs
"violence of any kind (including "tapping" )
swearing at them
terrifying them with irrational and unprovoked rages
failing to feed/clothe them adequately
following your turbulent sexual impulses at the expense of your children - moving different men in and out of the home, moving from bed to bed dragging your children along with you
belittling or ridiculing their childhood fears and beliefs
sneering at them and doing them down, especially in public "

it stuns and disgusts me the amount of parents that put there children down
calling them stupid etc

Very good post Orm. Agree.

Anna, benign meaning not dangerous, scary or violent. You can't really describe giving chocolate cake as either benign or malevolent ... well I suppose you could but it's not really the point.

agreed Orm, but different I think when one knows that eg.smacking is systemic rather than one-off, no?

As far as own parenting goes, I am quite definitely of the 'apologize, forgive oneself, move on, keep trying' school. Find it easier said than done though, and often fuck up.

Do agree that what is very wrong for one child can be fine for another. DD finds sitting on stairs quite reassuring (and probably grown-up) but DS would find it humiliating and a big rejection.

Not the devil incarnate, no, but lacking in imagination as to how to discipline their child. It's hard to imagine a perfect parent who did this.

Yes obm. But I have read posts on here that suggested that even an occassional smack = bad parenting.

And yes, when I fuck up I always apologise. And so do they.

I find it hard to imagine a perfect parent under any circumstances, imaginaryfriend.

I'm not sure it is different Onebat. I mean it would be easy to turn round to Seeker's friend and say 'That is SO WRONG. That is disgusting. You are a bad mother' - well, sort of easy.

But to say 'I don't think you should be smacking your dc so much, it doesn't mean you are a failure and I AM judging you, but not condemning you' would require more input and thoughtfulness and would suggest that Seeker wanted to help her mate out.

If anyone ever said to me as a child 'that is WRONG' it got my hackles up. It still gets my hackles up actually.

don't want to pull this thread towards smacking, because I think Seeker's question is a very good one and important for us as individuals and as a society.

But do think, bottom line, that teaching through physical pain, fear and/or shock is wrong as a moral absolute, however good the rest of the parenting is.

I used the expression perfect parent in response to themildmanneredjanitor's hypothesis of a parent who was ideal in every way except for the tap on the hand.

In fact it's more morally wrong if it's not done because temper has been lost, but as the result of a thought-out parenting strategy imo.

How appalling to hit your child, not in anger, but calmly.

tmmj that locking in the cupboard is abuse in my book.

yes agree tmmj, but we should be wary of 'comparative evil' - because one thing is very wrong does not make another thing less wrong.

Equally, because a supporter of one position (in this case, anti-smacking) behaves badly in another respect does not make the anti-smacking position weaker.

I think MMJ's point is really good, because it points out why absolutes are dangerous in parenting.

I wouldn't personally think that parent was the devil incarnate because they gave their dcs a quick clip around the ear to shock them. I would worry much more about the parent who is putting their child in a dark hall. Much, much more. I knew a mother who thought hitting children was as low as you could go, and she used to lock her child in the basement when he was bad. With the light out.

I did say to her I thought it was a bit extreme, and I understood she was cross and didn't want to hit him, but this really wasn't the way forward. And she burst into tears and said she didn't know what else to do, because she thought otherwise she'd hit him. She was nice too, just a bit desperate. And then she and I thought up various other things to do.

Parents do wrong things out of ignorance sometimes, and desperation. I'm not sure moral absolutes play any part in parenting really.