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Are there any absoute rights and wrongs in parenting?

586 replies

seeker · 05/02/2008 10:27

Apart from bottom line safety issues?

I have been thinking about this because I consider myself by nature a relativist, and the mumsnet consensus is to end most discussions with something like "each to their own".

But I was on a thread recently when I felt very strongly that someone's viewpoint was just wrong. Not a different point of view, but wrong. And I said so - expecting to be flamed - but somewhat to my chagrin I was reminded of my insignificance by being ignored!

So, are there any parenting issues that people feel are absolutely right or wrong - or is everything except basic safety things like car seats and smoking over babies heads and not leaving your valium open in the cot a matter of opinion?

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cory · 06/02/2008 09:58

Not sure whether I take an absolute stance on smacking or not. I grew up in Sweden where even in the 60's it was very uncommon. By the time my nephews or nieces were born in the 80's it had been banned. So it was never something I thought I might come to depend on; there were so many other things that people did about discipline and had been doing for a long time. We never knew the ban was meant to mean that children had to be allowed to run riot. IME Swedish children are not worse behaved than English ones, and you do see a lot of very good, firm parent behavior, also a lot of good parent-child interaction. So smacking has not been part of my parenting methods.

On the other hand, some of the parents I know in this country are what I would call excellent parents, even though they have been known to smack. So maybe it's not an absolute.

Have to say I would feel dubious about someone who sees smacking as a normal part of a discipline once the child gets beyond the age of 7/8, as this seems to suggest either a lack of understanding of child development or sheer desperation. By this age, children should have developed a sense of dignity which makes physical punishment humiliating; it's not just a physical thing any more. IME smacking a child of this age or over is also quite rare, so the child will feel different from her peers.

I am a little surprised that the thread about the spitting 11yo should have gone off into a general discussion of modern discipline: what most people seemed to miss was that this was a situation where both mother and child were under extreme stress due to a serious medical problem in the family, and the child was acting hysterically in a way she would not normally have done. This wasn't about general parenting or child-parent respect. They both needed sympathy and help, not least the mother who was struggling with a very difficult situation indeed.

If you look at the "But we took you to stately homes" thread, I think there are absolutes to be found there. Humiliating somebody, belittling them, making them feel they can never be good enough. Sexual abuse is another absolute, I would say.

I suspect the reason smacking has come to dominate the thread is that this is an area still open to debate. No sensible person would disagree about the evils of sexual abuse or constant belittling (though with the latter, it's surprising how otherwise sensible people can slip into the habit without seeming to notice).

OrmIrian · 06/02/2008 09:59

"but I cannot resist pointing out that the children of pro smackers seem to spend their entire lives running out into the road and putting their fingers into electircal sockets"

I know! I've noticed that. Must be bloody terrifying. I can honestly say that the socket thing has never happened and we lost all out socket covers in the first year of DS#1's life. And I don't think any of mine have ever run out in the road...and I can't hold 3 hands at once. I can only assume that in some things my DCs actually do listen to me

OrmIrian · 06/02/2008 10:01

Nor cut off a limb with a kitchen knife, nor stabbed anyone with scissors, drunk bleach, taken sweets from strangers, approached a strange dog without asking....nor any of the other dangerous things that inevitably happen if you let a child out into our terrible dangerous world .

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

BITCAT · 06/02/2008 10:53

I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one, there is only few things we will agree on that is, that we all love our children and give them love!! That neglect and abuse, sexual or other is wrong!! and no loving parent would ever do this!! Do we not all use fear with children, i mean the fear of either being smacked, not going to the park, being grounded, put on the naughty step or whatever you use!! I don't think i am right or you are wrong, incidently i haven't had to smack my children for about 2 weeks now because i havent had the need to..good luck to you all and happy parenting!!!

seeker · 06/02/2008 11:21

Deliberately instilling fear in a child is another of my absolute wrongs......

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BITCAT · 06/02/2008 11:38

So do you not ever use the old santa won't come if your naughty routine because isn't that fear!! Children do need some fear, fear of roads, strangers etc...As i say we all have different parenting styles but that doesn't make either way right or wrong, nobody really knows what the right way is!! My children are happy, healthy, full of life, they love both parents and we both love them, they go to bed happy everynight with a hug, kiss and we tell them everynight that we love them, and that affection comes back time and again!! Isn't that what matters, unconditional love!!!!Yes you may feel that it's wrong for you but doesn't make it wrong for everyone, thats your right, it doesn't make us unfit or bad mothers it just makes us different!!!

seeker · 06/02/2008 11:52

Actually, no I have never said that about Santa. And I don't think that children need to be frightened of roads - I think they need to know that they are potentially dangerous and they need to be careful, but they don't need to be frightened.

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onebatmother · 06/02/2008 11:59

and even if they did, they don't need to be frightened of you hitting them because they're not frightened enough of the freaking roads!

BITCAT · 06/02/2008 12:03

Fear is something all children need a little of, even adults have fears this is how we learn that things are dangerous..children are not born with fear. How to you explain to a 2yr old that roads are dangerous, they wouldn't undersatnd that...i would say to mine that you can get run over if you walk onto a road with out looking and teach them to cross sensibly!! There is a differnce between justified fear and irrational fear!!!

seeker · 06/02/2008 12:07

And even if I agreed that children "need fear" (which I don't) - they certainly don't need to be frightened of their parents!

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seasidemama · 06/02/2008 12:13

Surely children should experience fear as their brains are intended to: a highly motivating force in response to an exceptional danger. Roads are exceptionally dangerous if you don't understand them or aren't helped with them or aren't protected from them. Likewise with electricity sockets.

I find it hard to accept that children should ever have to understand their parents, be helped with them, or protected from them in order to not be exposed to exceptional danger, and thus, fear.

BITCAT · 06/02/2008 12:14

Do you know anything about psychology because i do!! and any shrink will tell you that a certain amount of fear is a good thing and is normal to have them. I actually studied this at college and i am about to go back to do some case studies and work with other students on this very issue of fear...so quit talking as if you know it all!! because you don't and noone has all the answers, i just know what is working for me and my children are safe and sound, and wouldn't run on to the road because they know it is not safe.

onebatmother · 06/02/2008 12:18

gah. Nor would mine! And not because I hit them, because i taught them.

seeker · 06/02/2008 12:18

5'm not talking as if I know it all - I thought what we were having was a debate. I am allowed to disagree with you, you know!

Of course children experience fear - of the dark, at the top of the highest slide, if they slip under the water at the swimming pool....watching Dr Who. What I'm objecting to is artificially created fear for the purposes of discipline.

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BITCAT · 06/02/2008 12:19

And seeker my children are not and have never been scared of me or there father!! because we don't strike them down whenever they are naughty we do use other methods!! If my children were scared would they come and own up to breaking one of there sisters/brothers toys surely they would be terrified of me!!! not so, they no they will get in to trouble and probably end up losing any pocket money to buy another and go to bed early that night but they know that and they know that they are loved and they have 2 loving parents and a stable home which many of there friends don't have!!!

cory · 06/02/2008 12:31

Actually, I think I might at last have found an absolute! The Santa thing! Yes, I think that's an absolute. Thank goodness, there are still some of them around!

My reasoning being:

either you enforce it, which is unfair on other siblings, grandparents who have already bought presents etc etc. Spoiling the day for lots of innocent people.

or you don't enforce- and what does that do to your discipline? Once threats have become a sort of background noise, they are doing more harm than good.

Twinkie1 · 06/02/2008 12:33

It makes me sad reading the posts about how people smack their kids - I was hit as a child and as an adult in an abusive relationship and when I ended up seeking help legally I was worried about how the abuse would be seen - would it be seen as not as bad as someone I didn't know coming up and giving me a smack?

What the professional I saw said was in his view violence - and yes smacking/tapping was included - is worse when it is administered by someone who is suppoosed to love and cherish you although as a society we see people who randomly attack others in the street as the people who are really really bad and not the people whacking their kids or beating their wives.

This is probably completely out of context now as the thread has moved on considerably but I thought it may be something to think about!

BITCAT · 06/02/2008 12:36

I think you are all missing the point, i don't regulary smack my children and when i say smack i mean on the bottom and never in temper!! And only when i have exhusted other options!! so what do you do then, do you have a naughty step or corner. If you do that again you will go in the naughty corner, thats what i do, i always give a warning and if they refuse to stay there then i will give them a tap which is usually enough to snap them out of it. Then when they have done there time in the naughty corner, we have a cuddle they will say sorry and i will say sorry for having to smack them..then it's finished with no bad feeling and it doesn't happen often...i don't see how this is so bad...my ds2 doesn't even need to be smacked because he responds to other things. They are all different, i never set out to smack them when they were born, i never thought i would need to!! but there you go..disagree yes fine but don't try and make me out to be a monster that has no feelings!! i'm doing what i think is best and you are doing the same for yours, if it works for you great and i don't think your way is wrong it just doesn't work for me everytime so i use something else along side it..i'd love to get away with not smacking and i am sure it won't be forever as we do have less and less need for it!!! I don't want to fall out with anyone, i just think pro smackers shouldn't be looked on with disgust and as if they beat there children, it's out of love we do it not because we are cruel...cruel to be kind and all that!!!

Twinkie1 · 06/02/2008 12:39

It's out of love we do it!

Sorry DS just thought I would inflict physical pain on you because I love you and it is for your own good - this is getting sicker and sicker!

onebatmother · 06/02/2008 12:49

BITCAT I think we are all, rather desperately, asking you to review your parenting strategies with clear eyes. Don't continue to do it because it has 'worked'. Look at the reality of it, put yourself in your kid's shoes, ask what the longterm message is, and what the longterm effects might be.

As I have said several times, I find the idea of hitting a child with a clear head even more cruel and distressing than when done in fury. And the cuddle and apology is absolutely revolting.

Children do what they know you want them to do. They are not, I can GUARANTEE, cuddling you because they feel loved and protected by you, but because they are afraid of more pain and rejection. They are trying to make it stop.

You should, quite definitely, take your studies into far greater depth if you are using 'psychology' to justify this behaviour. You are deluding yourself if you think you are sufficiently educated in this area.

BITCAT · 06/02/2008 12:51

I am sorry about what happened to you, but it is not the same. Are you trying to say i don't love my children, anyone who knows me and my family including my hv would tell you that we are one of the most loving families you could ever come across and everyone agrees that my children are extremely happy children and very confident in everything they do!!! I was smacked myself, my partner on the other hand his dad used a belt on him and beat him black and blue, there is a difference, and my mother was smacked as a kid and so were her sisters and they have all turned out well with no problems in life and they all loved one another...tried and tested for me!! What is sick about bringing respectful decent adults into the world!! We all have different experiences and as i say i am sorry for you that you felt that way and for what you have suffered and i think a may be a little old fashioned in some ways but i am certainly not sick!!!

onebatmother · 06/02/2008 12:53

Bitcat

Have you heard of the idea that people who are damaged may not acknowledge it to others, or even to themselves? That they may not even be aware that they are damaged?

You are looking at the whole issue at far too superficial a level.

seeker · 06/02/2008 13:01

I always feel very sad when people say "I was smacked and it didn't do me any harm" Yes it did - it made you into the sort of person who thinks it's OK for big people to hit little people.

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onebatmother · 06/02/2008 13:05

Abso-bleeding-lutely Seeker. That is all that need be said.

BITCAT · 06/02/2008 13:07

Excuse me i have more experience than most, i come from a family of 9, 7 kids 2 adults and i have 4 kids, and have looked after many and study childcare at college and yes i thought some of it bullshit!! Lots i have put in practice healthy foods, not using baby walkers etc... You can't or never will be able to comment on the love between me and my children because you have never seen us together so stop assuming what you don't know about....the sorry bit is not to make me feel better it's to show that saying sorry is nothing to be ashamed of and is of value to the children. They are not afraid of pain or rejection, and how dare you look down your nose at others and i will not change from a system that works and how can you possibly guarantee anything unless you can see it with your own eyes, more than enough love in this house and my mil cries when she sees the interaction between me, dh and the children because her childhood was one of no love and no interaction between father, mother or children she always felt less important than her sister!! Love and affection is above all the main thing in this house it is given always and as much love as we can give, i have always believed if you cannot give a child much else love and affection and food in there tummy is the thing toi give them and aslong as they have that then can't go far wrong!!!!