Are there any absoute rights and wrongs in parenting?

[seeker]

Apart from bottom line safety issues?

I have been thinking about this because I consider myself by nature a relativist, and the mumsnet consensus is to end most discussions with something like "each to their own".

But I was on a thread recently when I felt very strongly that someone's viewpoint was just wrong. Not a different point of view, but wrong. And I said so - expecting to be flamed - but somewhat to my chagrin I was reminded of my insignificance by being ignored!

So, are there any parenting issues that people feel are absolutely right or wrong - or is everything except basic safety things like car seats and smoking over babies heads and not leaving your valium open in the cot a matter of opinion?

only wrongs in imo are smaking and belittling

you can only do your best, but as long as you do your best you won't go far wrong

i don't need research to tell me its wrong to smack either.I just look at my children and I cannot think of anything they can do which can possibly justify a smack or lead to me loosing my temper and smacking them.

BIG BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...

But it's not about to smack or not to smack, it's about respect...discipline and the kind of society we want our children to inherit - isn't it unacceptable to allow our children to inherit a lawless and economically ruined country which has been brought down by a significant minority? And it is a minority of youngsters causing problems and a minority of parents being useless(??) the bad ones just get loads of news coverage, loads of kids just want to get on with growing up and being kids.

But poor behavior largely caused by poor parenting does have an impact -imagine going to work everyday and working with 1 person who just wouldn't do what they needed to do, who swore and spat and was generally unpleasant to be around...how much work would realistically get done?? Lots of work gets done in schools around the country, against the odds, because we live in what seems to be a permissive society. When my mum was a kid she and her fellows were petrified of getting into trouble at school because her parents would find out and be really ashamed and give her a really hard time. How often are people ashamed of their kids now? People often think it's funny and cute for young children to play up, why I can't begin to understand...OK it is time to hang up our belts - in the Netherlands smacking is unacceptable and they have much better social cohesion and better behaved kids (just look at teen pg rates...again is this a problem with girls lacking in self respect?) BUT...

Too many parents do not respect their children, because they fail to instill in them a sense of self discipline, and a sense of respect, both for others AND for themselves - I agree on many of the points made by scary teacher - parents are too often too quick in defending their brood against all good sense - as a fellow teacher, colleagues have even been accused of telling fibs about a child's completely unacceptable behavior (by the child, then backed up by a gullible parent...) because the parents believe a self interested child ahead of a commensurate professional. Why would a teacher bother to make up stories about a child's poor behavior? What could they possibly gain??? (Quite a lot of paperwork and man/woman hours to try and support that child and their parents - more work in a stretched environment) A child, on the other hand could gain sympathy, avoid being told off and generally get rewarded for fibbing...I'm not stating that children shouldn't be listened to, but some parents need to step away from the concept that their child is soooo perfect - NONE of them are (not even mine - they're perfect to me, but children are humans and by definition are not perfect...) Think about the fibs and tricks you got up to as a child..

Teachers just want kids to do really well and achieve the best that they can for themselves. Why don't more parents support us in this? Is it because we are less tolerant of the errant behavior that is permitted at home - and I'm not talking about all parents here.

Is it because as adults we are getting more afraid to tackle children who are not behaving well in case the parent or the child 'go off' - me and hubby (also educator) are happy to help a child by reminding them that what they're doing isn't a good idea or their behavior is wrong - kids know what they should be doing, isn't it a sign of respect that we are prepared to help a child, with a quiet word, understand and move on from their poor behavior. This is not a judgment on the parent - you can't watch what they're doing all the time and kids have an uncanny ability to do daft things when they're out of sight. It is what I feel is my civic responsibility - if I saw an adult breaking into a house I'd call the police, so if I see a kid doing something daft, I'll tell them. Also if I see a child clearly in distress and no parent/responsible adult is obvious I WILL ask the child if they're OK - I would hope that a pleasant person would do the same for MY children if they looked lost or hurt. Children are our future, shouldn't we all do our best for them?

Is it because politicians use education and teachers as a way to avoid the blame for not doing anything effective about some of the troubles in society and not tackling one root cause - parenting. Let's face it it's not a vote winner to blame parents and parenting for the way SOME children turn out and poor parenting cuts across any social or financial barriers.

My dad told me that children are a loan, they don't belong to you, they belong to themselves - you are given them for the first 18 years of their life, you are responsible for their basic care (food, water, shelter, clothes, education, aspirations, safety etc) and you are also responsible, to a point, for their adult well-being. You have to allow them to be themselves, teach them to be the best that they can be, to strive for excellence in all that they do (possibly not in criminal and violent activities lol). You have the responsibility to teach them to cope with life and the world in which we live, in a positive manner and how to be adults.

Ultimately as adults, they have to learn to be responsible for themselves and understand that actions have consequences. If I don't work will I be able to afford a holiday? If I don't bother with school, will I get a job? If I am violent to the point of killing someone, will I ever get to do the things I want to do - with the current justice system, possibly yes?? Obviously children don't make the link between school and earning money so they can get a sports car, but we have to teach them slowly and push them along the road to success (with IME lots of moaning on the way - growing up isn't easy).

I think the worst things you can do to a child is to prevent it from reaching it's potential as an adult, by not giving it the basic skills and self discipline it will need to succeed. This includes allowing a child to become so out of control it thinks it's OK to kick another person in the head until they are dead..or the basics of preventing a child from growing up and knowing both its parents (obviously unless there's a safety issue).

If we want to stop smacking being used as a form of discipline (and I'm not perfect, I have smacked) then we need to give people ideas and options and let people know that they need to discipline (with words, rewards, naughty steps, rules and boundaries, carrots and sticks as we like to think about them at home - not real sticks for those sensitive among you - whatever reasonable steps work - all children and parents are different), from a very early age - at less than 12 months and most children understand their first words, including the word NO. Kids are smart...when are the adults going to catch up?

Think of the Jusuit principle:

"Give me a child until he is seven, and I will show you the man."

The problem is Fairymum, that at the age DS was when he shoved the loaded trolley at the elderly lady, he would not have linked a subsequent punishment away from the shop with what he did. A smack (on his bottom) showed him that I was cross because he had hurt someone. Explaining patiently to him that this was not appropriate behaviour would have cut no ice with him, or the lady that was hurt. Being a teacher, I was and am totally unmoved by glares, as I spent much of my day being glared at anyway. I should also point out that I can deal with a class of 32 16 year olds period 5 on a Friday afternoon not wanting to do GCSE RE with one hand tied behind my back. Dealing with a stroppy 7 year old requires different skills. What you do in school, and how you deal with your own little darling is totally different as most teachers will tell you.

What would be an appropriate and immediate punishment in your opinion? I live in a nice middle class area as well..both in Cornwall and now in Brussels..and many of my students came from nice middle class homes, and you wouldn't have thought butter melted in their mouths from their parent's description of them. However, their behaviour at school and outside school left much to be desired, shoplifting for kicks, coming into class stoned, coming into school hungover.... I don't think class has much to do with it; I think parents bothering about what their kids are doing, and knowing where their children are and who they're with is far more important. One of the girls I taught was killed in a car smash last year, as was a 12 year old in the car with her....what was the 12 year old doing out with 17 year olds at 2200 at night?

As to not being being able to think of things that might cause you to want to smack them...that shows a a lack of imagination; mugging people; taking drugs; dealing drugs; shoplifting; beating someone up; knifing someone; stealing...but then maybe yours aren't teenagers yet.

BB99 is also right, because people don't tackle their own children, the children don't see that they need to have respect for adults. DS knows where the boundaries are...I now just have to look at him a certain way, or use a certain tone of voice, and he knows that enough is enough. I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that something will have to be done soon. Too many parents don't set firm boundaries, or are inconsistent with their discipline and are then surprised when their children play up.

My son now goes to an International School where the parent are too a tee middle class well paid professionals. The local supermarket at lunch time is interesting for a quick lesson on anglo saxon and bad manners when the sixth form is there; and some of the children lower down the school can be rude, uncooperative and downright ignorant in their behaviour to their peers, adults and other people's property. I speak from experience of running the Youth club for years 7-9. If this is the behaviour of some very privileged children, then what hope is there? It goes back to if you have rights, you must acknowledge and discharge the responsibilities that go hand in hand with having rights. Until that is taught, and enforced, then certain sectors of society will get worse, and out children will have to deal with it.

How would I have reacted? There are lots of alternatives to smacking a child of any age. I don't think I need to come up with suggestions for you. There are plenty of parenting books out there or you could look on MN. If he was really 7 years old, I think he should be able to link punishment outside the shop to what he did. If it was my 6 year-old I would tell him off and that would be enough. Tbh, he wouldn't have done it in the first place if he was that age.

You are also contradicting yourself. You say your DS knows the boundaries and you can just look at him in a certain way or use a certain tone of voice. Well, obviously not if you need to smack.

"Too many parents don't set firm boundaries, or are inconsistent with their discipline and are then surprised when their children play up."

You are confusing "not smacking" with "no firm boundaries" and "inconsistent discipline". Its so much more complex and as a teacher you really should know better!

I think telling a teacher, Fairymum, to 'know better' is outrageous, aren't we human too? I thought it was parents who were supposed to be as perfect and above reproach as possible, not teachers, although increasingly we are having to act in a parental role, even to the point of toilet training and teaching children to speak in some cases!

So often it's really easy to have a go at people who are teachers, because they're teachers. When I was in the midst of severe PND and suffering really bad sleep deprivation, several people thought it was ok to be unkind about my inability to, at that moment, be able to complete a simple maths calculation and think an issue though...'cause surely as a teacher blah blah blah...'
If kids are going to respect teachers and education, doesn't that start with their parents? But I digress..

Also you can't just tell people 'you're wrong' and then not give out any options - isn't this why some kids have a problem? Their parents won't smack, because that's bad parenting, according to some, but no-one has actually gotten around to providing any alternatives, so no discipline, or even worse, inconsistent discipline, occurs alarmingly often...

Sometimes parents feel that a smack is the appropriate sanction at that given time. I think there are far worse things to do to a child than be 'unimaginative' with your sanctions, for example the frequent verbal abuse I see people giving their kids around the shops, telling them all sorts of things about themselves - and of course if it's your mum or dad telling you, it must be true! (How damaging is that?) - also the word smack covers a multitude of actions, some would describe 'smacking' as beating a child unconscious, or leaving bruising, others a quick slap on the back of a hand which won't even make the skin red.

It seems a bit unimaginative to just bring this debate down to a smacking match - that's not what it's about, unless the only bad thing you can do to your kids is to EVER raise a hand to them.

I am privileged enough to have taught over 1000 kids and their parents have used a variety of approaches to managing their children. The ones who have been poorly behaved with no underlying cause, are often the ones whose parents allow them to do and have anything they want, including being rude to their own parents. Non of those children were smacked, let alone sanctioned in any way. Also the whole 'class and economic' thing is interesting. Some of the very best parents I have come across have been from all walks of life, from the illiterate and of very limited economic means, to the incredibly well healed professional 6 figure + salaries. The one thing they had in common was the LOVE they had for their children and the interest they took in their lives - they knew where they were, who they were with and what they were doing at all times (OK I'm only experienced with Primary Schools)

Oh, and btw, very little parenting training is given to teachers, because we're trained to be TEACHERS, not parents, so upart from knowing the age group we teach very well and understanding kidology, why "as a teacher, you really should know better" comes into it, I don't know...

Oh bb99, how clever of you to sneak in a dip at the parents of developmentally delayed children ... you know, the guilt was easing slightly, and you've topped it up nicely. Thanks for that.

Colditz - you misunderstand! BIG FAT apologies for not expressing self properly, never feel guilty about that, I wasn't trying to get in a dig at children with dev. delay or any other issues like that - heart goes out to all parents looking after children outside the 'average' and government does not give enough cash, support or anything...Yes, some children will appear poorly behaved because of a variety of conditions (please forgive if I experience foot in mouth, not intended) and I know they're NOT badly behaved children AT ALL, they are just being themselves in a homogenized system which doesn't always understand or do enough for them, I really didn't mean what you thought I did. So often accidental rudeness occurs - apologies to you and dear offspring! Not all the amazingly excellent parents I've come across have what are often described as 'high achieving' children... Was actually (clumsily) attempting to NOT cause offense

I was (trying to) talking about children who have no reason for finding school environment or any environment tricky except never having been given boundaries or consistent discipline!

Gosh Fairymum- I don't think that Mumsnet actually existed when my son was 7...and the only sites I had time to look at were teaching sites anyway.

If you read my post properly then you will see that I said at the time of the incident my son was 7. He is now 12.5, and no, I do not smack him now...the raised eyebrow and the tone of voice are enough. I was not therefore contradicting myself. Furthermore, I do not equate a lack of smacking to no firm boundaries or a lack of discipline - however, I believe that a smack on the rear end in the circumstances in Waitrose was justified. You were not there, so you cannot comment. There is also a big physical and mental difference between a 6 year old child, and a 7, about to be 8 year old, as I'm sure you will find out.

I note that you have not commented on the latter half of my post about rights and responsibilities either. Interesting...

BB99 - I couldn't agree with you more - I teach 11-18s, not little ones, and I didn't start teaching until DS was 5. I had little or no contact with smalls before I had him, so parenting and working has always been a matter of trial and error. Discussing this with DS today, his response that smacking him hasn't taught him that violence is the answer...he knew that when he was smacked it was because it was a punishment. I agree too that we are taught about the age group we teach, and to deliver classroom discipline, but you can only transfer that to a domestic situation if you have a really severe punishment as the ultimate punishment. You can neither expel, nor suspend your own child from your home, although perhaps detention (grounding) works when older. As my son has gotten older, parenting has become easier, as I understand him more...because this is the age group I work with. As you say kidology is one thing, parenting is completely different. If Fairymum had seen perhaps some of the things we have to deal with in our professional lives, and believe me, your blood would run cold with some of the students, then perhaps a quick smack in Waitrose could be seen in context.

Scaryteacher, I do have a 9 year-old DD too so I am aware of the mental difference between the ages. If you believe it is wrong to smack another person, then age is irrelevant. I fidn it peculiar that at the age of 7 you still have not established a way of communicating with your child so you are able to tell quickly deal with his behaviour in the shop just by telling him off, but have to smack him to estalish your authority.
I am not sure what you want me to comment on in your latter half of the post?

feel free to correct my english though. very poor writing today

Scaryteacher i don't actually think it is worth talking to these people!! They clearly don't get it!! I do and i agree with you..my 9yo also does not need smacks anymore as different punishments come into play when they get older

I agree a lot with the notion of absolutes include not belittling ( in all it's forms) and not hitting.

Interesting that in cases of DV, the vast majority, and I mean vast, the perps were hit as children - they learn this method of problem-solving v. early on in life and it appears to stick with them.

but also, hitting children is well on it's way out, and in time to come we won't be having this discussion.

it was stinkycat re the absolutes I agree with.

See what i mean scaryteacher? I am very happy with how all 4 of mine turning out and i expect you are very happy with yours!! And i am sure scaryteacher you have very clear boundaries, as do i, but at times the boundaries are pushed and everything else exhausted!! So that arguement doesn't count. We are all doing the same job, only in different ways, neither of which is any better than the other and cannot be proved otherwise. I think there are very few rights or wrongs because no one has a manual, parenting you learn through time and we all make mistakes, even in parenting (i've made a few), especially with your first child but we correct this with the next and it's those mistakes that make us human and i've corrected a lot of mistakes that my parents made with me, and has made me a better parent. There are things that we see as wrong in our eyes, eg(i don't think it right to see child of 12mths plus, with a bottle full of juice!), but thats just my own wrong for me...One persons wrong can be someone elses right. Only few exceptions such as abuse(i mean beating, hitting with belt, slipper etc), sexual abuse and neglect, that includes lack of disapline. Yes there are absolute wrongs, but i believe vast majority are a matter of personal choice and dependent on the child in question!!

Faitymum, you appear to be getting your timelines muddled. My son is now 12.5, so why do you keep referring to him as 7, as he was at the time of the incident in Waitrose? Yes, I had established my authority with him, but telling him off when he had lost his temper already over being told no, would have little or no effect. The smack firstly established that I was punishing him for hitting an elderly lady on the heels with a full trolley, and that it had hurt her. Secondly, it showed the elderly lady that I wasn't just going to admonish him - I had also taken action, and she saw it, so was satisfied. Thirdly, it stopped him in his tracks, and he began to realise what a total idiot he had made of himself and that he was in the doghouse with me. I don't quite understand your comment of age being irrelevant. You referred to the fact that your 6 year old wouldn't have shoved the trolley. My lad at the time was nearing 8, and had the strength to push the trolley so that it hit the elderly lady.

I find it peculiar that you seem to be hung up on the issue of smacking or not, and can't seem to see beyond that to the issue of what happens when parents don't, or can't be bothered to discipline their children, and give them things, instead of time. I would argue that this is a form of neglect that is having, and will continue to have repercussions for our society. You are very quick to criticise, but so far I haven't seen a constructive solution from you about what to do with this agenda. You may live in a nice middle class area, I suspect many of us posting on here do, but we can't afford to be smug about it. The young people who drift aimlessly on the street, or who get drunk, or stoned are as equally likely to be products of middle class homes as anywhere else. Several will probably attend the local private day/boarding school. These children grow up without self-discipline or an aim in life, and expect everything to be handed to them on a plate 'because it's our right'. When that expectation isn't fulfilled, and they are challenged, then the trouble starts. You may have a couple of years to go until this impacts on you, but for those of us with children coming up to their teens, and who work with the secondary age group there is a disturbing trend emerging that the responsibilities are being ignored, and that the rights of the kids are paramount.

I am also interested in your comment about how you believe it is wrong to ever smack or presumably strike another person....what would you do if someone was physically attacking your children or your partner or your mum? Would you strike someone then, or talk at them...or to go back to the OP, is it relative as opposed to absolute?

I wouldn't be so rude as to correct your English BTW...I teach religion and ethics, not English.

I am not muddling my timelines. I thought we were talking about the waitrose-incident and that was when your son was 7.

Age is irrelevant to me because I beiebve it is wrong to smack another person regardless of age.

I am commenting on the issue of smacking on this thread. It doesn't mean I cannot agree with your other points that parents need to take responsibility for their children.

I am not sure I can be bothered to come up with constructive alternatives yo ask for. I think any parenting book or search on MN could give you excellent alternatives to smacking your child. Personally telling off my children work for me. In the trolley-waitrose scenario I would have told my child off and asked him or her to personally go up and apologise to the lady who had been hurt. I think this would have taught them a lot more and it takes a lot more courage to apologise to people than to receive a smack on the bum.

Would I hit someone who was about to hit me or my children? I find it a strange question. My stand on smacking is absolute as a discipline tool. If forced into a corner by a maniac about to attack my children, who knows what I would do. It's hardly an interesting question relevant to a debate on weather to smack your children I think.

Scaryteacher very good post!! And good point..if someone was attacking me, my dh or my children i would of course fight back and protect my family as most parents would do. I was bullied at school by these children you talk about..ie the ones with no disapline and do as they please regardless of anyone else and i for one do support the teachers at my childrens school and if any of my children have been misbehaving, then there will be punishments at home for them to reinforce whatever the school has deemed neccessary!! I will not have disrespect for anyone!! I have also told my children that they are not to hit out and are to tell teachers or us if anyone bullying them, but when a child is constantly hitting you and calling you names and then no amount of sanctions work, because the schools hands tied then there comes a point when the only alternative is to fight back! I always tell them to talk first but when all is said and done sometimes enough is enough! I didn't fight back till i was in 4th year secondary school, by then my confidence and whole school life had been ruined by the bullies but as soon as i fought back..it stopped and i wished i had done it sooner!! So your arguement that hitting doesn't work fairymum or that striking someone is wrong, tell that to the bullies. It may be wrong but we sometimes have to do things that are wrong to make things right!!

scaryteacher - you are on dangerous ground. A 7 year old who pushes a trolley into an old lady in Waitrose has (unless he is SN) had a pretty pitiful upbringing and has not been taught to behave in public. That you smacked him for what is your failure as a parent is pretty dismal discipline.

ha ha.....totally agree Anna!

Anna8888, how dare you suggest this child has had a bad upbringing, you do not know the child or his parents!! What absolute crap!! Some children, just as adults do lose there temper from time to time and will try to push the boundaries and that is all i would say had happened he. But i feel she dealt with it accordingly(not that she has to answer to you) and i am sure her son, who is now a very well behaved 12.5yo due to excellent parenting, would have known he'd push to far and was probably enough to signal this...how dare you call another parent a failure..A parent is only as good as the adult they produce, as we have a while before this happens, i would suggest you keep your mouth firmly shut!!

Message withdrawn

Anna8888 - the ground looks just fine from where I'm standing thank you. A 7 year old who has a temper tantrum in the middle of Waitrose and who has the ability to work himself up, as some do, has not had a pitiful upbringing at all; he just hadn't learned to control his temper yet. I know several late teens and adults who can't control theirs either. The smack stopped the temper tantrum, and I should have applied it earlier.

I do not accept that I failed as a parent at all. After all, we are all human, and therefore, not perfect, nor have I ever claimed to be. It all comes down to what we do in different circumstances. In those particular ones, a smack was appropriate. For the record, he did, and does behave in public...have your children never misbehaved when they're out? Lucky you, if not!

As for a pitiful upbringing, I have not sent him down the mines, up chimneys or to boarding school, only to prep. Neither has his physical or mental well-being been neglected...so quite where you get pitiful from I don't know. As he is now a nice child, who counts backwards from 100 in Flemish before he flies off the handle, I will carry on with my dismal disciplining and being a failure, as it evidently works for my DS.

Fairymum, sorry, you were getting your tenses and not your time lines muddled. What I find strange is that you are quick to criticise smacking, yet can't be bothered to offer alternatives. If my son can't manage his homework, or has got it wrong, I don't say I can't be bothered, go and read about it, or look it up on the internet; I try to help him with it, by sharing good places for research, or giving him ideas that he can use. Yes, I've read parenting books, but sometimes the advice given doesn't work for your child in that situation. Ideally I would have liked him to apologise to the lady, however I did so profusely, whilst he sat at the back of the store in silence and contemplated his sins and calmed down.

'I beiebve it is wrong to smack another person regardless of age.' was your comment. I was interested to know if this is your attitude just to smacking your children, or if this extends further. If as Bitcat posits, children are physically and verbally bullied at school, and the school procedures don't solve it, what will you tell your children to do? The parenting books that people read seem to be posited on an ideal world, and to be a counsel of perfection, with children reacting in a given way, or responsive to reason. I have noticed that real life and real children don't always work that way!

Nice to know though that we do agree about something which is parents taking responsibility for their children.

Bitcat, thanks for the support.

Fairymum, I have been I think polite so far and reasoned in what I thought was an adult and mature discussion about relatives and absolutes in child rearing, which seems to have become focused on smacking rather than sexual abuse for example.

I note with dismay your rather puerile response to Anna8888s post in which she casts aspersions on my child's upbringing and her view of my failure as a parent. It is a good thing I am not overly sensitive, as the level to which the pair of you have descended appears to me to be a par with some of the cyber bullying that I have seen students receive, and which in some cases has had rather unfortunate consequences.

I had hoped that Mumsnetters were sensible women who would contribute politely and reasonably to a frank exchange of views whilst respecting and appreciating others points of view. What a shame that neither of you have the maturity to do so. Run along and play with your dolls dears, and let the grown ups do the talking.

Sorry Dannae - DV is domestic violence.

I agree with your post too re authority rather than an outward expression of 'power'.

I don't prescribe re other parents approach to hitting their children, but I do wince horribly when I witness it.