Are there any absoute rights and wrongs in parenting?

[seeker]

Apart from bottom line safety issues?

I have been thinking about this because I consider myself by nature a relativist, and the mumsnet consensus is to end most discussions with something like "each to their own".

But I was on a thread recently when I felt very strongly that someone's viewpoint was just wrong. Not a different point of view, but wrong. And I said so - expecting to be flamed - but somewhat to my chagrin I was reminded of my insignificance by being ignored!

So, are there any parenting issues that people feel are absolutely right or wrong - or is everything except basic safety things like car seats and smoking over babies heads and not leaving your valium open in the cot a matter of opinion?

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Was that to me MM? Of course I don';t mean that.

Danae, Yes it is all very dependent on where your stress response is 'set' from childhood, but this isn't also to say that this cannot be recalibrated with work in later life - educationally over the broad spectrum of what that entails including cognitivly.

You can also work on self articulation, self esteem, coping strategies - all bloody hard work no doubt about it, but possible unless some deep pathology is at work.

The stresses that poverty can place people under can definely contrubute to later emotional difficulties; it's an environmental cause, a vicious circle that perpetuates itsel;f over generations until someone breaks the chain - usually via that bogey 'education'.

I think people are maybe limiting what education means. I am not talking about uni education.

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I would depend on how severe and f you have support around you. Many women are away from their natal families after having kids, lose touch with friends who don't have kids (especially if they don't drive).

It's a very admirable approach, but a depressed mother ofter results in a depressed child and I'd say it's imperative to get PHD dealt with asap, by any means necessary if it is having a negative impact on yoru himelife. You owe it to yourself. (Not you persoanlly [smile)

I dread to think of the amount of women and famlies of previous generations who had to suffer this undiagnosed and treated for lifetimes.

Not sure if teenagers are supposed to have a weak attachment to their parents thouhh. I'd like to see the studies before and after such hormonal surges.

To answer Danae's question of whether emotional literacy is taught in primary schools, yes it certainly is in the one I work in - the SEAL programme is part of our PSHCE programme & is being introduced into lots of schools.

Just a thought - are we too concerned (as general society) with the easy out and also being 'friends' with our children before we are parents???

As parents we will often have to make unpopular decisions and stick to them, even in the face of dynamic moaning, nagging and whining etc...

I often see parents giving into their children after they have made a clear NO decision - personally I think this is really unfair on the child and gives the wrong idea about life in general - boss says no, I moan and get what I want... hardly the real world they will one day have to learn to live in.

Also in the long run it makes it harder to parent - imagine being given into your whole life and then parents say NO - you can't stay out all night / get drunk / smoke / have opposite sex over for big parties, OK some parents don't mind that and that's their business, but if you are trying to say no, having capitulated to their every whim, how's that going to happen? YES, it's HARD HARD HARD at times and we all need a bit of peace, but whoever said parenting was going to be a breeze (OK the adverts - LOL)

It's really cruel when they first get to school, as suddenly they're faced with a world where they have to fit in and toe the line and co-operate. Kids who always manage to get their own way often find this really hard. How's that excellent parenting??

Teenager question is interesting - some studies are showing teenagers feeling isolated, detached and lonely - could this be linked to TV's and computers in their rooms?? It's really difficult to talk to your parents (sometimes) when at that stage of life, as it can be sooo irrational, but if you HAVE to sit in a room with your folks and see them everyday, then surely they will be more likely to pick up on if something's wrong, or if you've suddenly changed..OK not all children have interested parents and personally I think disinterest is a no no!

I am a secondary school teacher, obviously educated to degree level, and I have smacked my son on occasions. I can remember as a child being told that I was useless and that I would never amount to anything by my Dad, and spent until he died (when I was 34) trying to please him, and never succeeding. This was far more harmful than the infrequent whack I got from my Mum's slipper when I had pushed the boundaries too far....and I certainly pushed them!

I think that you have to be very careful when defining abuse. As a teacher I thought it was abusive that several of my 11 year old students were allowed to roam around until all hours of the night; not be fed a decent meal; and turn up with a hangover in the morning, as their parents didn't care where they were. Others would disagree with me.

I also think that PC society has tipped the balance too far against teachers and parents who try to instil discipline into their children. Children (of all ages) are all too aware of their rights, but not of their responsibilities, and you can't have one without the other.

Yes you can parent without smacking, as DS has got older there are other sanctions I use, but there is such a thing as tough love. Children need to see that there are boundaries and that their adults will maintain them. Not setting them boundaries, and letting them get away with all sorts of behaviour because you want to be liked by your children seems to me to be abusive to the children and to society as a whole.

My daughter has just had her 1st birthday and is a little rogue (and i love her for it - spirited i like to think), she has a great sense of humour and, as we call her, is a little pickle!
However, she also has a tendency to bite, which is totally unacceptable, I have tried reasoning (as if that would work with a 12 month old), to no avail and have resorted to smacking her hand (not hard and without malice). But, once she understands NO and can appreciate that actions come with consequences Smacking will not be an option (it wasnt one i wanted to use). Talking to a child, explaining and reasoning is far better than smacking.

On abuse by food - an ex- boyfriend of mine had a daughter whose mother fed her Jam Sandwiches for breakfast and lunch and fish fingers and chips for Dinner. She used to stay with us about 3 days a week and was continually constipated to the point she split her bottom trying to pooh. With the help of a good doctor and meal planning I got her sorted only to hand her back to her mother and for my hard work to be reversed with in days. Is this Abuse? Your damn right it is... Food is an important part of life. Not just interms of nourishment but this child was unable at 9 to use a knife and fork and to sit at a table properly. I feel it limits the child in the future. Just imagine sitting at a business lunch and across the table sits an adult who is unable to use a knife and fork and has no table manners as sits at the TV eating dinner. All children deserve a good balanced diet and in this country we can provide that, and yet we choose to feed our children on proccessed rubbish and sugary nastyness. As a full time mum we live on a budget and I find its more expensive to buy bad foods than good on the whole.

Well thats my rant over!!!!!!

I agree totally with the last 2 posts. Nobody wants to smack a child!!! And i also feel that teachers, police and parents rights to disapline children are being taken away and that cannot be a good thing!!

I'm sure I'll be flamed here, but I think these things are WRONG:
Babies with pierced ears
Circumcision (of either sex).

Both of these are mutilation, IMO (unless the latter is performed for purely medical reasons, of course)

How exactly are the rights to discipline children taken away bitcat?

There are so many things...expelling difficult pupils is one..schools no longer have any rights!! The police have so much red tape, and to my mind when my aunts were kids, a policeman would give you clip round the ear, if you stepped out of line..some teenagers don't have any respect for teachers, police or there parents...i think because the kids know that they can't do these things and nothing can be done to them!! Teachers have to put up with a hell of a lot these days and they shouldn't have to if the government gave them back there powers to expell these kids..and they should deal with the parents that seem unable to control or disapline there kids effectively!!!

FoodieLexie i agree, yes it looks very nice to have a babies ears pierced..more about fashion than a need!! My daughter was 6yrs last oct and had been asking to have them done since she was 4, but i thought it was a little young..i always said i would wait until they asked!! I explained to her that it would sting a little and may hurt for a few seconds and then asked her to sleep on it and she still wanted it done so i took her the day after her birthday. She was really brave and i was so proud of her...but i think it should be there choice not ours to make!!!

The ability to discipline children is taken away as a parent and as a teacher. My DS has threatened me with Childline on more than one occasion when he couldn't get his own way. Luckily, he didn't realise really what he was saying...but had he been older and wound up, he may have phoned them. Not I hasten to add because he was being abused...he was having NO said very firmly to him. There is a culture of fear growing about drawing boundaries for kids, and we kowtow to this at our peril.

As a teacher, you cannot discipline a child for fear of counter accusations and suspension from your job. I made a throwaway comment to a student in Tesco one day after school, and got hauled over the coals the next day, as her mother didn't like the tone of voice I used to her daughter. As I was outside school hours I objected to this, but still got a bollocking. The fact that the child in question swears, spits and is generally abusive in the classroom, and you have to deal with this 3 times a week is neither here nor there.

It is impossible to challenge a student for wearing inappropriate piercings in the classroom (eyebrows etc) which contravene the school uniform code, without a letter coming in from their mummies defending the right of their little darlings to self expression and suggesting that you stick your head where the sun doesn't shine for daring to challenge the kids. The student knows this has happened and then sits and smirks in the lesson. You are powerless. No wonder teachers leave their jobs. You try to maintain discipline in the classroom but many Heads are unwilling to take on the students or their parents, and the class teachers are not backed up. End of discipline, another caning in the media for the teaching profession and disillusionment all around.

If you dare to tick your child off for rudeness or inappropriate behaviour outside the home, then you are glared at or accosted. When my DS lost his rag in Waitrose one day and slammed the trolley across the shop, it cannoned into the heels of an elderly lady. I apologised profusely, and administered a smack to DS. I was glared at by a woman, whom I could see disapproved of smacking. I asked her what punishment she thought appropriate...she had no answer. She nearly ran out of the shop when I told her I was a teacher! I also saw this at my DS's prep school...kids who were foul mouthed bullies were not disciplined by their parents...they 'just had a little talk with them and Ludo understands now that whacking Sebastian across the head with a hardback book so hard that his nose bleeds is not appropriate'. I think they'd understand far more if it was done to them.

The bottom line is that if you disenfranchise and disempower parents and teachers and the police in dealing with out of control kids, society reaps the whirlwind...the murder of Gary Newlove springs to mind, as does the murder of another guy in the paper today, and the near fatal beating of another man who tried to intervene with a group of youths. Those who want can bleat all they like about bad backgrounds affecting these little dears; but these kids have not been taught that there are boundaries. They are amoral, and the writing was on the wall years ago with the Jamie Bolger case.

Political correctness has tied our hands, and human rights legislation is so far on the side of those who commit crimes, that we forget there are victims in all this...the kids whose education gets disrupted by those who habitually misbehave in the classrooms; the children who will grow up without their Dad because he dared to challenge the feral youths on his street; those who live in fear on estates governed by crack dealers; my late Grandmother who lived her last two years in constant pain with a broken shoulder blade because of the toerags that mugged her for two quid...and 91 year olds don't heal very well. If we are going to have rights then we MUST teach responsibilities as well, and make it plain that there will be consequences if these rights and responsibilities are abused in any way. We then need to enforce those consequences, and make them far more unpleasant and immediate than they are at present.

Well, you did ask Fairymum!

Scaryteacher i can't agree more!! On watching the news last night almost every story was about someone that had been beaten to death by youths or teenagers that had been stabbed or shot!!! I say good on you scaryteacher had my ds done this he too would have recieved a smack!! And it's nice to see that teachers are human and they are not all against mums that trying to bring there children up to have respect for teachers, police and there parents!! And i agree with everything that Gary Newloves widow said...bring back hanging..human rights..they gave up those rights when they acted like animals(and thats being unkind to animals)!!!

I would have glared at you for smacking too. I would have grealed even more if I knew you were a teacher tbh.
Not smacking doesn't mean no consequences. As a teacher I would assume that you had more imagination and knowledge in how to "discipline"your child.

I would also think that the teens who commit the hidous crimes mentioned above probably have parents who smack them quite a lot and certainly do not just have a little talk. They probably don't talk to their children at all in many cases.

Luckily most teens I know are really well behaved, but then I live in a very middle-class area

I know many mums that do not smack and there children are awful, spoilt nasty little children that don't have any respect for anyone!!

Yes there is more to parenting than smacking/not smacking,but these children are probably not awfulo just because they haven't been smacked. Sorry, but the posts that you write I find really simplistic.

I was out yesterday with a friend, her 5 year old DD and my 5 year old DD. I was absolutely gobsmacked to see her attitude towards her DD. She called her "a little cow" for daring to act like a 5 year old does. She whacked her three times for not getting into her car seat. I didn't sleep last night for thinking should I have said something. The reason this friend reacts this way is because she has absolutely no patience. If she learned to step back and think before reacting that way, it would be a happier life all round for her DD. She knows she shouts too much and told me she was trying to be better, but obviously not.

If you are a good parent, you treat your children with kindness throughout their lives. To me, that includes not hitting them. If it worked, why would you have to re-administer the same punishment? It just means that you have lost control.

Children test us everyday but they are learning life through how we treat them. To me to teach them that violence is right (through smacking) is very wrong.

Each to your own though. I won't preach to any individual about how they bring their children up. We are all different. I sleep easy at night knowing my children are being brought up with a rational, nice, happy mother.

ROFL at
" I know many mums that do not smack and there children are awful, spoilt nasty little children that don't have any respect for anyone !! "

That was two exclaimation points so it is doubly true!!

Case closed, stop discussing, no research, no arguement, no further questioning at all.
Bitcat knows these children so it must be unequivocal and universal and true.
Bitcat - are they all called Violet Elizabeth?

Thank you.I approached this thread with trepidation but that has made my morning . Not going to read anymore as it can't get any better than that.
Off now to beat the children. Its the only responsible thing to do

I also know plenty that don't and have lovely children, all children need different tactics...but as for fairymum..the name says it all fairy!! As mum (ands dads) we sometimes have to do things we don't like, disapline is one of them!! And fairymum what business is it of yours if someone decides to smack there child, and glaring at someone that does is not only very judgemental but very rude!! I have 4 very well behaved children which i believe is testament to my parenting and disapline and yes there is much more to parenting than smacking or not!! But when all has failed and i see many parents arguing with children and the children clearly are not responding to the responses and are not respectful of there parents..i think that i smack would be in order and it's because of the narrow minded people like you and the other PC lot that we are having so many problems in this country. When my parents, grandparents were young we didn't have all these problems because disapline wasn't interfered with..only in cases of neglect or actual abuse!! I also think that there are other issues at play, such as some parents just not giving a shit, teenage mothers that go on to have 4/5 kids each without fathers and a complete break down through the generations of no disapline, so it goes on and on. I honestly believe these parents should be made to deal with there children and face up to there responsibilties. Fine them, jail them if you have to and above all take the children and give them some disapline and try to turn these kids lives around, so that they can be good adults with respect for those around them. Scaryteacher is i believe bang on with her post.

"it's because of the narrow minded people like you and the other PC lot that we are having so many problems in this country. "

I love your posts. You are just ranting away at your own speed and without any logic.

I have plenty of logic, my logic comes from experience and that of how my children are turning out..i don't rely on research that is one sided and i never will rely on it because i have a brain and experience is much more valuable than any research. I don't say you are all wrong..i say that in some cases a smack can be warranted and may just have the desired affect..it's fine that you don't(it's great) but that is your choice..doesn't work for everyone!! Perhaps if people concentrated more on their own children, instead of concerning themselves with everyone elses which is none of your concern, then it would be a better place to live.

Sorry that should have been "effect" not "affect".