13 year old daughter is out of control - Please help me.

[NewEnglandDeli]

Hi,

This may be a long one as I don’t want to drip feed, but I would really appreciate you sticking with this and offering any advice as i’m so lost. I feel like such a failure and I don’t know what on Earth to do. She is ruining my life.

This child comes from a stable, loving home. I kid you not when I tell you she is showered with love. She is told, and shown, often how loved she is. She also wants for nothing, as we are incredibly lucky to have financial stability - Maybe this is the problem. She has too much. I’ll caveat this with saying we are starting to feel the pinch like many, we are both self employed and things haven’t been marvellous this year. We are facing the new year with some worry and trepidation like so many others, but our daughter doesn’t know this. She still has everything she could want or need & it’s always drummed in to her how fortunate she is.

My house is an open home. Her friends are always here, i’m always hosting parties and organising days out with her friends and their parents (We are all good friends as we met when our girls were 2 and they all went through school together) She has a good social life, loves school, is a really popular kid and she also goes to martial arts classes 2 times per week where she’s met some new friends and is excelling. She is brilliant at martial arts and I was hoping it would instil respect and discipline- It hasn’t. She’s going worse as time goes on.

We have a younger son who idolises his big sister. He’s only 4 and she does get jealous of him sometimes but they are very close. It breaks my heart to watch how scared he looks when she kicks off. I also can’t stomach watching him observing her when she swears and speaks to us like shit. This innocent little boy will think it’s ok to talk to his parents this way if this carries on. I cannot allow this.

In Primary school she was a model pupil. Literally the perfect child. She shone academically, was incredibly polite, enthusiastic and in Y6 became Head Girl of the school. I couldn’t have wished
for more. Since starting Secondary school she has slowly changed. She’s in Y8 and each passing week she gets worse. Luckily, her school work isn’t suffering and she treats her teachers with the respect that they deserve but I mean at home, she is becoming unrecognisable.

We expected the usual teen strops, eye rolling, not wanting to “hang around” with us anymore, and it did start off like that, but now she’s become aggressive- slamming doors, threatening violence, swearing, totally overreacting at the slightest request such as tidying her absolute pig sty of a room.

She is permanently on her phone. Laughing, joking on Facetime, scrolling Tick Tock and Snapchat. I took her away in the October half term, just she and I. Her brother and dad stayed home. Her phone remained her constant companion and in the end I had a go at her about putting her bloody phone down and enjoying some quality time with her mother. I’d have killed for that at her age. I came from an unstable home due to a dad that a womaniser and a
criminal and a mum that wasn’t around for
me as much as she should have been (Although she and I are fine now and she openly
admits her past faults) I always swore my kids would feel loved and secure and so “one on one” time is very important to me. I occasionally take her to the theatre, for dinner etc. She never particularly wants to be there but I do it anyway so she knows that I want to spend time with her and that she is so important to me. In a nutshell she certainly does get time and attention.

I’d be here all night if I gave all of the examples of her behaviour but i’ll share 3 incidents this week -

Bonfire night we were at the local pub for dinner before the fireworks display. We were with friends and their daughters who are friends with my 2 children. My husband asked our daughter what she wanted for her dinner and she replied with “Nothing, it’s vile in here”…. 10 minutes later we had all ordered and she looked like she regretted her decision, so he asked her again. Her response this time was a very loud “I said nothing. Shut your face before I smash it in”

To say that I was disgusted, embarrassed and heartbroken was an understatement. The whole pub looked at her. Her dad looked like he wanted to cry, and whilst I love him very much he is a bit useless at all of this. He’s never been the disciplinarian, he is anything for a quiet life. He will rarely talk about her behaviour to her. He will either brush it under the carpet and leave me to try and deal with it, or he’ll say to me that he can’t do this anymore, he can’t live with her whilst she is like this and he feels like he doesn’t want to be in our home.

Second example this week was Friday night. She came home from school with a Monster energy drink (She had it hidden) She knows quite well these aren’t allowed, it’s non negotiable. I found it, asked where it had come from and she said her friend gave it to her. I’m friends with this kid’s
mum and dad and so said i’d call them about it as I know for a fact their child isn’t allowed these drinks. She exploded. Called me and her dad the world’s worst parents, said she hates us, we are “Fucking rats and fucking grasses and she hopes we die” She began screaming and crying like a lunatic. Her little brother’s face :( He was so scared. I can’t continue to let him witness this.

After these 2 incidents I took her phone away: She did appear sorry and more pleasant and so it was reinstated. I’m no angel. I will shout and berate her for her behaviour, I don’t let it go. I lose my shit over it and when I’m calm I talk and try and reason and understand but she cannot answer why she behaves this way. She says she doesn’t know and that she doesn’t think it’s “that bad”

The last example was tonight. Laughing and joking all night on the phone with her friends. I popped my head in to say Goodnight and she said “Where’s my food?” In that awful, disrespectful manner that she so often uses. I asked her to explain what she meant as she had her dinner when she came from school. Her reply “That didn’t fill me up. I thought you were making soup” When I explained i’d made the soup but didn’t think she’d like it, she started screaming that she’s neglected, and that she’ll go and make a “fucking sandwich” She flounced out of her room and then she punched me in the arm with hatred in her face.

I squared up to her, I honestly wanted to slap her face. I have had ENOUGH. All I could think is how fucking DARE SHE!!! It’s getting out of control. Hitting me! Who the hell does she thinks she is. Seriously, she wants for nothing, loved and cared for. Why on earth is she doing this to me? I said to her “You have gone too fucking far now, how dare you”

She laughed in my face and called me a
dickhead. I absolutely lost it, I wooled her by her head to her bedroom, I went nuclear. I took her phone, remote control, everything of value to her. I told her what a disappointment she’d become and that she was a devastatingly bad example to her impressionable little brother. I then started sobbing, begging her to explain why she behaves this way. She couldn’t answer. I told her I hated who she had become because it’s the truth. I cannot stand her anymore. She was warned that this is it. She’s fucked up monumentally. The phone has gone, she is grounded for the foreseeable future, she is confined to her bedroom.

I’m not proud of my actions tonight but I’ve put up with this for so long. My heart is shattered. She’s vile, it’s as simple as that.

I have no idea where i’ve gone so wrong. We’ve always had boundaries, she’d always respected them until this last year. She was a wonderful kid and I was so proud of her but now she is truly unpleasant and i’m left feeling like the world’s
biggest failure as a parent.

Please can anyone offer advice. How the hell do I deal with this? What can I do? Why on Earth has she become so awful?

My only thought is to speak to her martial arts teacher and ask him for help. I literally don’t know what else to do?

Can I ask, with respect, how it escalated things?!! It had already kicked off BIG TIME through her language, behaviour and violence before I squared up. The second I squared up and took her by her hair to her room, she completely piped down, she retreated, she knew she had taken it too far. I’m not proud AT ALL in how that played out. I have classic mum guilt and am devastated it went that way; but it all calmed down then. It didn’t escalate.

OP - my sympathies. I have young kids - so disclaimer. Maybe try not to take it personally about her not appreciating 1:1 time or lovely restaurants (even though she wanted to be there) or theatre or walks. I guess just try and accept that at her age she may not appreciate these things that she used to (and that many people enjoy and she is also likely to enjoy in the future).

maybe what she wants is to be a slob, stay indoors on her phone and see her friends (not appreciating exactly what venue). That is not to say that just because she wants these things, she should get them - but it may take away the frustration at her being ‘ungrateful’.

you can still negotiate for her to go for an autumn walk (eg you cook a meal she likes or do one of her chores for her), but maybe don’t expect her to enjoy it or say she enjoys it (even if she grudgingly does).

not particularly in to this woke culture of not being able to say boo to your kids

There's an in-between you know. It's not not saying boo to them Vs dragging them around by their hair.
It's a bit sad you think not abusing children is "woke."

It isn’t about not being able to boo to your child though.

You’ve done a lot more than say boo.

‘Losing your shit, squaring up to her and dragging her by the head’ and it being all about how you feel?

You are an adult. She is a child. Your child.

I think your only mistake was waiting this long to react. Your child speaks to you in that manner and punched you?

I’m raising four teens as a lone parent and they know bad behaviour isn’t rewarded. We are in a similar financially secure position as you and I have also spoiled my children and had to rein that back in when I realised it wasn’t healthy.

You’re in no way abusive, pp has some sort of investment in making you feel like crap, ignore them.

Feel your pain op

I was once that awful teen. I was a terror, I truly was! And this was 1997, so no phones etc. My parents used to call me Kevin.

I truly remember thinking that my parents were completely pathetic. Everything was pathetic, saddo, boring, oh god I whinged about it all. My brother was just an embarrassment. And like your daughter I had a super privileged upbringing! Loads of holidays, fabulous house, etc etc. It was never enough.

My dad used to say : too much, too soon.

And he was right.

@BruceWaynettaSlob I definitely don’t think not abusing your children is woke. I’m not a monster.

@Onebrokentoe Thank you. I take my hat off to you doing this with 4 teens!

@mackthepony It is never enough for her, and i’ve swiftly learned this week that spoiling her has done her no favours at all, so that must change. Too much, too soon - Again, this resonates!

My sympathy as one of my DC was the same but including assaulting her siblings.. it was the most horrid time and I felt alone with it. The worst thing was constantly being called fat, mental and generally making me feel such a crap person. ExDH was crap and left it all to me. She eventually moved in with a relative who lived nearby. She ended up doing similar to them.. we get on now many years later but it is still challenging at times. I think sometimes it is a feisty personality/MH/BPD.

The most useful tip I ever learned for dealing with teens is to wait until everyone has calmed down before applying consequences/punishments.

So if DD stomps off and slams her bedroom door late at night tell her you will discuss it in the morning (and if she’s shouting and banging around in the morning tell her you will discuss it after school, whatever is appropriate at the time).

Then, when the prearranged time comes calmly tell remind her what the transgression was (eg you swore at me/dad) and then apply punishment (I’m taking your phone for 24 hours) and then stick to it.
Give her 20 minutes to WhatsApp her mates and tell them she’s got no phone for 24 hours, if you are feeling generous, but when you take it, take it for the amount of time you said and give it back when promised (she needs to experience you keeping your word as a model for her keeping hers in future).

Think about carrots (things that pull her towards you/home) as well as sticks (calm consequences for when she transgresses).

My eldest was a nightmare. I basically had to give him a star chart, like a toddler (only instead of ‘stars’ each tick was worth 20p and we added them all up on Saturday morning and he got the cash to go to the skatepark. If he ticked off more than half the boxes he had just enough for what he wanted, less than half and he didn’t. Each tick was for small things that made his life more pleasant, eg ‘got up on time without mum shaking me awake’ and ‘arrived at school on time’). Was an admin nightmare for me (I’m not naturally very organised!) but it created all sorts of positive connections in his teenage brain and prepped him well for the joys of earning his own cash through a part time shelf stacking job during 6th form.

He’s 22 now and we’re off to a gig on Friday. So glad I didn’t abandon him on the steps of a Dickensian orphanage when he was 13/14/15 (and believe me, I wanted to!)

You can definitely turn this around, OP, you just need a calm strategy!

Hi op this is really awful for all of you . You and your dh must feel under siege.

This behaviour is normal in the sense that some teens will repeatedly challenge boundaries and parental authority as part of the process of becoming a separate individual. However your daughter is quite young to be engaging in this level of defiance and obviously the manner in which she is challenging you is totally unacceptable.

So your aim should be not to stop her from testing the boundaries (as this is a natural process) but to get her to understand that she needs to do this in a way that is reasonable and appropriate.

You absolutely cannot do this if you get emotional and lose your temper because then you are teaching her that extreme emotion is the way to negotiate these situations and they will keep escalating. And sorry but your dh needs to grow up, step up, control himself and support you.

But if you and your dh both feel you need “strengthening” to deal with this onslaught, then maybe some therapy and professional help and advice would be a good idea. That might also help you separate the way you were parented op, from the way you are parenting your daughter, who has totally different needs!

Owing to adolescent plasticity in her brain, your dd is probably not fully aware of the level of hurt she is causing you, (hence her statements about her thinking her behaviour wasn’t “that bad”) so both you and your dh need to take a deep breath and step back emotionally and address her behaviour in a much more detached manner. Do NOT take it personally!

I know this is hard but she needs you both to be strong, stable, consistent and calm. And when she kicks off, you ignore, walk away, grey rock or , for more serious situations, like at the restaurant, you intervene very calmly and purposefully. I agree with pp that in that instance your dh and you should have joined forces and immediately said you were going home. Not causing a big fuss but quickly and quietly getting up to leave.

Obviously shouting, any aggression or violence is totally unacceptable and she needs to be taught that doing this will not get her what she wants. So ease back on the one to one time, the friends coming over, and the treats. Be slightly less emotionally available. Focus on your own projects. Keep the lines of communication open, and still tell her you love her (teens need to hear this often) but try and step back from the negative cycle of arguments.

If she says “where’s my food?” in a really rude way then tell her calmly that you won’t be spoken to like that and turn your back and walk out. Don’t engage further.

What you did tonight, taking her phone away was quite right. In response to her punching your arm, I would be telling her that I will not be paying her phone bill between now and Christmas. Just try and lose the attendant shouting 😫😤

Her behaviour is telling you two things:

(1) that she is splitting herself off from you and in order to do that she needs to reject and challenge everything that you believe is important (eg the forbidden energy drink incident). This is why this is happening. It is a natural process. It is not a rejection of you personally. Nor are you a parenting failure!

(2) that she has got too big for her boots and being defiant is working well for her currently so in response to this you need to give her more responsibility ideally something that is a little bit above her capability level.

It can be anything: a DoE challenge, a solo train journey, helping in a friend’s shop, looking after the four year old on her own (if you trust her to do that) going to do a challenging errand, taking sole care of an animal, managing in an environment where no one speaks English. Anything that will make her feel a little uncertain and not so invincible. It’s a good idea to consult her karate teacher about this.

You also need to choose your battles op and decide what is really important. Obviously there’s something amiss if you are reacting with the same level of anger over her smuggling in an energy drink, as you are to being punched in the arm.

It’s not so much a question of you imposing rigid rules from the top, as clearly laying out the expectations then stepping back and allowing her to choose the direction she is going to take, so that she brings the consequence on herself if she gets it wrong. So instead of reacting and blowing a gasket in reaction to her poor behaviour, you are the one walking along side her saying “oh I’m disappointed for you that you chose to bring that consequence on yourself”.

Hang in there op and don’t hesitate to get some rl support for yourself if you need it.

You can’t be friends with your child. You want to be friends and you can’t be equal friends and parent successfully.

When she’s older/adult a friendship will naturally unfold.

But now isn’t that time.

She may not want to spend anytime with you right now. That’s ok. She’s not your mate. Forcing time together that’s unwanted by her will only end in dissatisfaction for you.

I know lots of adult women who go on spa weekends and holidays with their mums. It’s a natural transition from parent/child to a more mutual and equal ‘friendship’.

I don’t know a single person who takes only 1 of their children on a week long holiday 1:1. A trip to the cinema, bowling, shopping, yes. But a weeks holiday?
She’s not your mate. She’s a 13 year old child.

I think the lines/boundaries have been blurred with the whole ‘I’m not a regular mom, I’m a cool mom’ thing.

Your doing you best and sound very loving. But I think it horrifies you more being rejected/disrespected after all you do for her because you’ve treated her as a best friend as well as a daughter.

The fact that you’ve raised concern about ‘how do I make her spend time with me’. As a concern says it all really. She WONT want too. She’s a teenager testing out independence and your her mother. She may wish to retreat to her bedroom 90% of the time and only grunt the odd word to you. Natural.
So long as she’s being respectful and doing what she needs to do in school then it’s fine if she wants to just roll her eyes and retreat to her bedroom.

Whilst she’s grunting and eye rolling you need to be parenting. So monitoring screen time, making sure homework is done, ensuring any chores are done and monitoring her general well-being. Not flapping around behind her with theatre tickets and a holiday booking. No ma’am. She can learn her manners, get through school and come out as a decent and pleasant person to release into society.
Then you can talk holidays and weekend breaks 1:1.

Hugs though as you are trying your hardest and are a good mum by reaching out. Xx

Only one young DC so my input is purely anecdotal but my mum also dragged me by my hair to my room when I was 13/14. I was a horrid, rude little brat back then. I can’t remember the infraction (not hitting) but I suspect I called my mum a bitch or similar and she just lost her shit. I 100% deserved it although obviously it is now considered to be very old school parenting.

For me, I still continued to be a teenage arsehole but I was always a lot more wary of how far I could push my mum. I didn’t get more respectful overnight (and probably just muttered “bitch” under my breath once I was a safe distance away 😅) but I have a lovely relationship with my mum now in my 30’s and I did in my 20’s as well. 13-19 though I think I was a nightmare so you may have a few more rough years.

Don’t beat yourself up about it. We all make mistakes and I’m actually glad she was suitably cowed by your reaction. She crossed a major line and will think twice about doing it again.

Overall it's within the bounds of normal teen behaviour

However the specific lines you quote - eg the threat of violence in the restaurant are not on. If she does something like that again, take her straight home.

You mention a few times squaring up to her. I am not jumping on you - but has she learned some of this from you? Teens do model behaviour, so if you don't want her to shout and swear, stop doing it yourself.

She doesn't sound unusually spoilt to me, just a an affluent middle class kid. It sounds like she is much luckier than you in that respect, but going on and on about how much she has is probably trying for her. I'd stop that.

Be clear about boundaries, have clear punishments when she breaks them. Watch your own behaviour. But overall - do remember teens' brains are literally scrambled, these phases do pass.. by 18 she'll probably be delightful.

Oh and the PP saying she's not your mate is right - she's not.

She will not want to hang out with you for a good few years. It's a biological thing - they have to separate from their parents to become adults themselves. So do both of you a favour and stop expecting that.

This book might be worth a read

Get Out of My Life, but First Could You Drive Me and Cheryl to the Mall?: A Parent's Guide to the New Teenager

There is an English version with Alex in the title rather than cheryl

Imo your behaviour didn’t de-escalate the situation. You lost control and shut your dd up by using more extreme violence than she used then cried and begged her to behave better.

I know you have said this will be a one off, which is good because parenting like this never works. Somewhere along the line, the child gets old enough to fight back, probably from about 15.

it is now very important to talk what happened through with your dd when you’re all calmer. I think you owe her an apology for the violence. Yes, she owes you an apology too. But you lost the moral high ground on that score so may have to wait a while. Besides, as the adult, this comes from the adult first and with a list of house rules and consequences such as withdrawing her from martial arts.

As I said once it had reached this point, I would not have confronted her before she had eaten in case she was hangry, as this can lead to very irrational behaviour. But I totally agree with Onebrokentoe though that you and your dh should have acted before reaching the point you reached today.

Also just to add to my previous post.

The way she reacts to you and her dad in such extreme disrespect is also a symptom of the child/friend dynamic.

She won’t see you as just her parent/authority figure. Your also her mate. I don’t know about you but children say things to each other they wouldn’t dream of saying to an adult. You don’t respect your friends like you do adults.

Once you separate friend from parent into a much clearer boundary, that disrespect should stop.

I totally got why you lost control. You know it was wrong but I understand. I would have been very triggered by one if my kids punching me and don't think I could have kept my cool, and I'm pretty calm.

What stands out here is your husband. You are doing all the discipling and it's bound to burn you out. Your husband has an absolutely enormous role to play in how this has been panning out. You need to speak to him as a matter of urgency about how to proceed. I am shocked that he sat there looking like he wanted to cry when your daughter humiliated him like that in the pub. I actually think that he is the weakest link in the whole situation here and, as the mumsnet saying going, 'you've got a DH problem'.

You sound like a good mother who is trying her best.

Have I crossed over to another dimension? The OP dragged her child into another room by her hair. The level of minimisation in these responses is absolutely mental.

OP, she talks to you like shit because you've talked to her like shit. She's aggressive because you've been aggressive. It's not rocket science and it's got nothing to do with being 'spoiled'.

You need to grow up and fucking behave.

I always swore my kids would feel loved and secure

Sadly, I don’t think one of the children will be feeling loved or secure tonight.

How is she reacting to you now? I don't agree with physical violence but "shock and awe" can be a very useful tool. You've definitely given her a big shock. She hit you, you hauled her into her room by her hair. It's done now and you can't take it back. She's learnt you have a line and she crossed it. The issue is if she keeps crossing it, what are you going to do? I know people have suggested taking her home after the eating out incident but if you stood up to do that and she said "f-off, I'm staying here, you can't touch me" what would you have done?

So, what do you want her to do? She's growing up and needs to expand her independence. How can you facilitate that transition while maintaining boundaries? It's currently not working. Disrespectful dialogue directed at her parents needs to stop.

I’m no angel. I will shout and berate her for her behaviour, I don’t let it go. I lose my shit over it and when I’m calm I talk and try and reason and understand but she cannot answer why she behaves this way. She says she doesn’t know and that she doesn’t think it’s “that bad”

I told her I hated who she had become because it’s the truth. I cannot stand her anymore.

from your original post these comments give me much concern than you hauling her by her hair. Words can never be taken back. Saying sorry can't make you unhear them and can't erase the memory and emotions they triggered.

You need to stop losing your shit and yelling at her. Badgering her afterwards as to why she did and did something is also not going to work.

What you might be able to do is sit down quietly and discuss what has happened. You both went too far and physical violence is always unacceptable. You said she used to be a nice kid, so that's still there somewhere. Moving forward you need to be very clear on expectations of behaviour. It is expected that all family members speak to each other respectfully. I'd be discussing with the three of you, your DH has to be part of it. Some things are non negotiable but others can be moveable as she gets more independent.

Try to check out whether she is using illicit substances. Also try to chart her periods to see if she is reacting to hormonal changes. If these incidents peak/exacerbate pre-menstrually, think seriously about PMS and PMDD. Menstruation is the biggest change between primary and secondary.

You need your husband on board. She needs strong and safe boundaries from both of you. Also apologise profusely for your violence to her.