I'm so viscious towards my children. I feel so much venom towards them.

[RedMist]

Name change regular.

I love my kids. They make me smile and proud.

Sometimes though, they drive me nuts. Actually, a lot of the time they drive me nuts. Like I have no time for them and they are nothing but an embuggarance. I wish they'd just leave me alone.

They mither for food and sweets a lot.

They prod, poke and provoke each other.

They trash every room, indeed even little corners I've just managed to organise or tidy. We live in a shit tip, no matter how long I spend clearing up & cleaning.

My son is 6.5 My daughter is 4.5.

I've started to lash out, really visciously. Tonight, I smacked my son across his face because he;d pushed his sister when he'd walked in the room. Then I started pushing him and saying "How do you like it eh? How do you like it when a bigger person pushes you around?"

Then I sent them to bed and refused to kiss my son good night. I was still shaking with anger at him for deliberately being a little shit.

My daughter pushes my buttons as well. She snaps and snarls and is deliberately rude, to gain attention. She whines and whines until my head feels like it's exploding.

I've read the parenting books. I know the right way to discipline. I just seem to have lost the ability to do it. I'm irrational and short-fused when ever the children are around.

What the fuck is wrong with me? Why am I like this?

I went to GP and he gave me fluxatine (sp?) - basically, prozac. It zonked me out so I stopped it.

Where do I turn to next. What shall I do?

I'm married and my DH helps with the children but he's quite untidy as well - simple DIY jobs for example, always end up with every tool and all the associated crap, just left lying around, waiting for me to clear them away. So that just adds to everything.

I need answers Mumsnet, or at least a place to start resolving this.

Any advice?

Well - I screwed that up . Try again

Your'e absolutely right TWM and SingleDadofThree, you sound so . I hope MN is a support to you.

Argh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm a numpty www.home-start.org.uk

Right - I now need to take a few deep breaths.

A friend just pointed this thread out to me - some fantastically helpful stuff on here. RedMist, thank you so much for being so honest. It has clearly helped so many people already (me included), and I hope it has helped you. I've spent the last couple of hours reading the whole thing and taking copious notes!

@ernest - your story about your DS counting cars really rang a bell with me. My mum told me of an occasion a couple of weeks back when she'd taken my boys to swimming. They were having a conversation in the car about who in our family was good at what. When she asked my eldest about me, he said, "Mummy's good at criticising her children". So I have a loooooooooong way to go, clearly.

I did want to mention one little thing about working. Some people here have mentioned part-time work as a possible help, in getting you out of the house, giving you some child-free time and so on. I work full time so my own situation is more extreme, but just to say - try to recognise your own limits! Work can start out as a great release and quickly become a burden. Do be careful about taking on more than you can handle.

@kindersurprise - you're not my SIL, are you?? Your comment about your SIL's kids not reacting until she yells struck a chord Causes me great sadness that my kids don't seem to hear me until I yell at them. How does one come back from that point, reset the clock and start again?

Finally, sleep - ernest mentioned this top of her list for "things to do". I am gradually coming to realise that, having previously been someone that could function effectively on a Thatcheresque 4 hours a night, this is no longer the case (ironically, I think partly because I take more exercise and am generally healthier!!). If I haven't had enough sleep, I feel like someone has peeled back my skin and pushed me out into a gale. Everything gets to me, straight away, I have no buffer. So for me, I have to learn how to make sleep a priority (I'll worry later about how to replace the extra hours for chores that I will have to use for sleep...)

Keep posting!

Hi RedMist,

I don't normally feel strongly enough to reply to posts but your original post really touched me deeply.

Lets get one thing straight - we all have times (sometimes minutes sometimes days sometimes longer) where we feel like we can't cope and its all too much. We've all thought 'god i hate my kids, i hate the house, i hate life'. You're not a bad mother because of it, and it takes someone really strong and brave to admit that you need help.

As someone else said, you do sound overstressed and underappreciated. You also sound depressed and struggling to cope, particularly flashes of extreme anger, frustration over things that wouldn't normally bother you etc are all classic signs of depression. I would suggest that you take an online indicator test for depression (try this one www.med.nyu.edu/psych/screens/depres.html or do a google search). Consider going back to your Dr, but parentline, childline, the school nurse, health visitors etc are all good places to ask for help from too.

I was having huge problems with my daughter which were driving me totally insane (at one point I couldn't be in the same room as her for about 3 months because I would have pinned her against the wall), and my Dr was really helpful and referred us for family counselling. This really helped us understand the triggers which set us all off (children can be deliberately annoying too, esp at 4 and 6 because they want your attention and know that doing something aggressive will get some kind of attention).

I'm also a trained childminder and have done various first aid courses, and can tell you from experiences that social services rarely become involved unless the child is seriously at risk, but are at great pains to stress that they are there to help families stay together and get the help that they need to be happy. They don't automatically remove children - even murderers and heroin addicts generally keep their kids, so you are well down the list hon!

My health visitors/school nurse run a 10 week parenting course which is designed for parents of kids age 5 to 11 and largely tackles subjects like what to do when your kids are driving you nuts. There are privately available courses like this too so ask around at your Dr and locally for info.

If you google family counsellors, there are plenty of them who are willing to chat to you. I made contact with a good one called Ben who gives a free phone consultation and some good pointers as a start, then charges after that (but he's really nice and easy to talk to). His website is www.just4parents.co.uk if you want to have a look at it.

It also sounds like you need lots of support - have you got any family or friends that you could ask to help you out? Even if its just an hour of peace to clean up the house on your own without kids, that can help. I only have one friend locally but she and I try and babysit for each other, and sometimes have each others kids over for a couple of hours to give the other a break. It really helps!

You don't say if you're a full time mum, but if you are, then part of your frustration may be because you're not doing anything for you - whether its a job, a hobby, an evening course or voluntary work - they can all support your individual talents and help you get away from the mind numbing chores and monotony. Physical exerice is good for depression too - you could try dancing as its lots of fun and feels more social rather than just slogging it out at the gym. Have a look at www.ceroc.com - there are classes all over the country, every evening of the week and lots of people go on their own. You'll be dancing by the end of the very first lesson so its very accessable.

good luck!!

soph xx

Hello, sorry to hear about your problem, but you're not alone and I think loads of Mums find it hard to keep sweet tempered at times. I tend to lose it more with my husband than the kids, altho they wind me up too, but have felt much, much better since taking FLUOXETINE. I get really bad PMT which makes me angry and unreasonable, & after being on/off fluoxetine for a couple of years, my GP and I have decided to make it a long term thing - it's not just an AD, it also evens out hormone imbalances. Could this be your prob? Don't give up on it, it really does take the edge off. Good luck.

Redmist,

Only got to page 7 but wanted to reply to one of your posts:

'Twig - I think it's (I) upset a lot of people as well. Do you really think it's a good idea to keep it? I feel a bit guilty posting on it, knowing it bumps it in active convo's and people who have been upset by it have to see it again. That said, it's keeping me focused just now and I need it and it seems to be giving loads of other people good ideas - ooooeeee, I don't know what to do for the best....'

There are times I don't pull my punches with posters. They go onto a forum and explain what a p**t they are and then expect sympathy or to be told they are right.

I had to walk away from the computer when I read your post the first time because of the tears. You were very honest about where you were, what you had done but most importantly accepted what you had done was wrong and not excusable. You were not looking for sympathy, or to be told you were not a bad mum.

In many forums you would have just been flamed and called names. Yes one or two have done that here, but overall I am amazed at the amount of support and practical advice you have found here. But then I am newish here still.

Absolutely this thread should remain visible and open to post on. If it is too upsetting for someone then they can choose not to keep reading it.

But more importantly as you have seen many parents go through this at some level. Many parents remain quiet because we have become a society obsessed with child abuse and condemning parents like yourself without bothering wondering why they have got to this stage or how as a society and individuals we can help them.

Because of current attitudes and condemnation we drive parents like you into hiding, afraid of what will happen if others find out etc. The result is they don't get help and unfortunately some children do die. Of course then the parent is evil and wicked and we condemn them more, nor will anyone accept as a society perhaps we may have had some responsibility.

I look forward to reading your posts and following how you are getting on.

In the meantime (((((HUGS)))))

Dear RedMist, Please disregard the vitriol of other posts, you don't need it, as you are being hard enough on yourself - I agree with some replies, in that you are at least consious that this situation is not normal, nor acceptable.

You are overwhelmed, that is clear, and your exasperation is evident. Prozac does zonk you out, I know I took it for ages, but then had to give it up cos it just wanst working. First things first, you need to regain control, and antidepessants can be very useful - Citalopram works well for panic and despair, and no side effects - go back to you GP and keep trying until you find something that takes the edge off - you can get through this and will!

Agree also with the taking out time before responding - just go to the loo for 30 seconds or so, and take deep calming breaths. You can do this, really you can.

Self help books can also be really useful, see if you can grab an hour or so in a good waterstones or similar, and just see what's out there. Can your family help you out in anyway? One thing is clear, you need to try and find someone to talk to about this, perhaps congnitive behavioural therapist, as they tend to help you to analise your moods, behaviours and reactions and try to show you where the thoughts etc are irrational and how to get them back on the straight and narrow.

Hang on in there RedMist, it will pass, but you will have to put your heart and soul into it, it's a hard and long journey, but one you have to make - we are all behind you and wishing you well!

Abuse. IMHO, is too strong a term - I have two small children and only once I have (gently) smacked my son's bottom. No excuse, I was tired, I was hurried, I was stressed, I wasn't being listened to. I was very upset about it and I haven't done it again. I explained to him why I did what I did and he understood and said he was sorry. I do not consider this abuse on any level. You are after all human and one that needs help and advice and an ear.

Your children are old enough to understand the boundaries you set them (they will obviously push against them ... hey, that;s what kids do) Reinforce them firmly. Perhaps give them an ultimatum (we were told as kids that if we had to be told three times, we would get the cane ... it worked - we knew what the rules were esp when my sister did get a tap on her bum one day - she was mortified and my mum had stuck to the boundaries she had set)

Lisalisa gives good advice.

Redmist- you have taken a big positive step in writing what has happened down.
Now write it down on one big non-stop rant as ou think about things. then rewrite it in a loigical manner about every thing that is worrying you -even the most minute niggles. Let your dh read it- it saves from you saying it and getting upset/angry.

Then tackle one thing at a time. You adore your children that is obvious. take the count to ten rule, and carry on with this- although stick to your guns about the behaviour you expect. let the littler things behaviour wise go for a few days. Get back to the doc and review.

try and get some time out. You said you wanted to go running- can you start it sooner?That will helpo. Please be strong let us know how you get on.

i have not read all posts but i so feel for you redmist anyone who has not felt over whelmed at some point can count themselves v lucky i have locked myself in bathroom and sobbed before when all around has been like a war zone you need some support. Have you thought about parenting classes you will also meet some other normal parents that are feeling crap and you can support each other. can you afford a cleaner and then you can come home to tidy house i send my ironing out and that is a relief. good luck xxx (wish i could hug you)

I am reading all this with tears pouring as i have been through it and totally empathise with redmist. life seems a bit better now but it is still close to the surfaec how much i suffered and despite cries for help to the Gp, health visitor,my husband and even my mother, no one helped.
Parent line counseling/ support DID help in that I became more assertive about making my husband do more. also, getting a part time job (ie, get away from the kids and into a world i CAN control (and by that I mean teaching, so you can imagine how bad home was!!)also, i found a reasonably priced child minder to take them off my hands now qnd again and let me clean/ tidy/ make phone calls in peace. Parent line also made me see how young thewy are and lower my expectations.

I also now plan ahead to avoid the most stressful moments, too (eg if they go off on one when we get in the house after being out, we are all hungry and i am trying to get the food, i either take sandwiches they can eat in the car, or have it all set out ready to cook the moinute i get in). I also consciously think: 'Smile at them'.

One thing my gp said was helpful: kids need to deal with less than perfect peolpe, thats life,. they need to learn they can go too far. they know i love them we do have loads of fun together, so its not all bad.

I feel for you and admire your honesty, i do hope things improve soon.

I too have felt like this at times, and have only just managed to stop myself lashing out at my 3 year old. It is awful and your instinct is right that you need to sort it out. People who have not experienced that sort of uncontrollable rage don't understand how hard it is to step back from the brink.

I agree with many of the suggestions on here although I haven't read them all. I also can tell you one thing that has helped me a lot - Rescue Remedy, available from health food store, Boots, etc for about £5. Take a couple of drops in a glass of water and sip it overnight (if you are up 3 times a night like me) or during the day, and if things get really bad you can put drops directly on your tongue. It has helped me so much. PLEASE please take some sort of action to help yourself, even if that isn't your cup of tea, and don't give up thinking life can be better than this. It can. You can be the parent you want to be.

And sometimes your kids might surprise you and understand if you sit down with them and say something like, 'Mummy doesn't like shouting, let's figure out a different way to talk about things.' Or even something a bit heavier like 'I really love you and I really want to try to figure out a way for us all to get on better.'

I really hope things start to look up soon.

I have read some, but not all of the posts here, so if I am about to repeat someone else, forgive me. I had a period of extreme stress a couple of years ago. This lead me to be screaming at my son. While this is abusive behaviour there is a difference between abusive behaviour and abused children. You are trying to stop the abusive behaviour to ensure your children do not become abused.
When I was ill I sat down with my son and explained that I wasn't well and that sometimes when we are not well we feel sick in the tummy, or have a runny nose or a cough. I then explained that sometimes we only feel sick inside and that can lead us to do things we don't like doing, such as shouting. I tried to explain that it was still wrong to shout, but that sometimes, when you are not well this can happen.
Throughout the conversation I assured him I loved him and that because I loved him I really, really didn't want to shout at him, ever.
This is such a horrible situation for you all, but life can be better. I managed to get back onto an even keel by only doing the absolute necessary for a month - on the advice of my wonderful GP to whom I could confide anything. If you are working, this means taking time off, but not cancelling the child care.
I also started pretending to be the kind of mummy (and person) I wanted to be and I managed to get about half way there, but the shouting stopped.
I have a highly stressful job, which I love and which provides us with a home! However, now when I shout (which occasionally I do, for none of us are the perfect mother, no matter what some people may think) I know the stress levels are rising and take time out. Today was an example. I was shouting at breakfast, so as we walked to school I pretended to be a gentle mummy and by the time we were at school we were the best of friends again. Then I stopped working in time to collect him from school and this evening we have played some games along with daddy.
While this has worked for me, you may think it is trite beyond belief and that is ok. If one of these posts helps you then that is wonderful.
All I really wanted to say was hang on in there. We all have times when we are on the edge of chaos and it is finding ways of coping that are important - experiment, try the ideas that others have suggested. Above all do not give up trying and when you have found what works for you, recognise when you are near the edge again and take the all important time out or together or whatever works for you.
All the best - let us know how you are getting on. And please remember none of us are meant to be perfect just good enough.

As an addition/alternative to the prescribed drugs route as others have suggested, please give this a thought & try.

This gentleman has really helped me with various things, he is a pranic healer and his name is Les Flitcroft (he is NOT freaky and is really down to earth and won't muck you about) and was recently featured in the Daily Express Saturday Magazine.

His details can be found at pranichealing.org/directory/unitedkingdom.htm - scroll down, he is at the bottom of the page but comes with my full recommendation. He will defo calm you down.

As an example, things he has helped me with are: Healed ulcerative colitus, helped me to conceive after 4.5 years of trying, even did my pain relief during childbirth (& no he wasn't present!), post pregnancey healing, healed my husbands hiatus hernia & tinnitus & the list goes on.

I can't thank him enough & hope he can help you too. x

LES FLITCROFT
Institute of Pranic Healing UK and Ireland
Mobile: 07961 581148
E-mail: [email protected]

P.S. Good luck & let us know how you get on as I think that everyone who has posted here cares in one way or another - or they wouldn't post!

A really brave and inspirational thread.

What comes across to me most strongly is the tremendous guilt that we as mothers (& fathers too) feel at not being perfect parents all the time. That's a hard ideal to live up to & perhaps we ought to cut ourselves some slack? I don't mean, don't strive to be a better parent (just look at all the excellent suggestions on here) but not to expect ourselves to be perfect, in fixed Mary Poppins-mode all day, every day and thinking we fail if we are not.

I'll try not to repeat what has been said already, although I do want to thank you for your honest post. There are loads of mums out there that behave towards your children like the examples you gave and not think anything of it. I think you're thread shows you are really a great mum (trying to get out!) and I am shocked that child abuse has even been mentioned.
I can relate to how you feel because I have suffered from depression. Prozac did help me, but I came off it when I was pregnant (my son is now 2.5). What I have found now, is that being on the pill has really helped me, which leads me to beleive that my depression is sourced from hormone problems, might be worth looking into for you? I have to come off the pill for health reasons, so now considering going back on Prozac, but if I didn't have to come off the pill I wouldn't feel the need for it.
The other alternative, is St Johns wort, which is prescribed in Germany instead of prozac. However, from the research I have done, I'd say it is probably best to see a practitioner in order to administer it correctly.
I would also like to recommend a book which really helped me, "Healing Without Freud or Prozac" by Dr David Servan-Schreiber. I've read a lot of these sorts of books but found this one really helpful and convincing, also it's no airy fairy stuff, written by a professor of psychiatry, the website is www.nofreudnoprozac.org.
I also found parentline very helpful, I had one to one sessions with a counsellor once a week, I definitely recommend trying it.
I know that you have done millions of things that make you a brilliant mum. Get the help you need and focus on that. You will be okay xx

It's taken me so long to read all the posts since my last post yesterday, I've no time to do a proper reply now! Will come back to it later.

I had another great day yesterday, busy with two extra children and everything, but never the less - great!

Film crews, imagining you are Earth Mother (in kaftan) and knowing so many people on here have put so much of their time in to writing posts so I don't want to report back in with bad news, really, really helps!

Back later to post properly.

OK, so this morning DSD wakes me up incredibly early by playing her recorder loudly and then turning on music and singing. This was almost enough for me to start the day with a grump, but I took a deep breath, went into her bedroom and asked her nicely if she could play a quiet game til it was more like getting-up time instead of bellowing. This worked, and meant we all started off OK rather than upset, which was nicer. In a mo I am going to take her swimming which will be good for us - I've been a bit busy this week at work and not been able to spend much quality time with her, and we both get a bit more distant with each other when that happens, and it's harder to deal with problems well.

Hope you all have good weekends!

Heated,

You make a very valid point.

I believe it is important for parents to learn when it is time to draw a line in the sand and to move on.

Like most parents I went through a period of losing it with my daughter and would begin shouting at her, getting into her face and being abusive (non physical). In part the reason was I was trying to parent a 'normal' child and my daughter has Aspergers.

Having been told by the 'experts' there was nothing wrong when Aspergers was finally mentioned it made a huge difference to our family dynamics - mainly on my part rather then daughter.

There was a lot of guilt on my part, especially realising I had been adding to her problems. But after six months of not shouting at her, and family life being much better, I decided I had been feeling guilty long enough and it was no longer productive.

Children don't come with a manual, and if they did you might as well throw it out with autistic children. As parents we are human and just as fallable as any other human and will make mistakes. The real point is we learn from those mistakes and improve.

Children are amazingly resillient and more often then not survive our mistakes. If we do resolve our errors children move on, it is important as parents we do to.

Redmist,well done for coming out with all this and please feel supported to keep on tackling this, you have really inspired me too as i realise i have my own tantrums to deal with and anger issues.Some people are lucky enough not to have experienced depression and therefore have a lack of understanding oand compassion for others....you do, and you ARE on the case. I think lisalisa has made the most valid points...please dont listen to the negative finger waggers!!xxx

Do you still have access to a health visitor? If so they may be able to offer support, if not then the school nurse. You may also be able to access counselling from your GP surgery, if not then your local MIND. Counselling could give you the space to consider what is going on for you and learn more helpful coping strategies.

RedMist

Well done, the 1st step is admitting that you need to change things and only you can do that, this is the hardest part, realising you are not the perfect mom!

I've been in a similar place to where you are now and all I can really say is give the AD a chance, as others have said there are plenty out there and there will be one to suit you. I was absolutely against them and refused to take them for over a year, that was my biggest mistake! Once I 'gave' in they gave me chance to 'take that step back' 'count to ten' 'leave the room' etc etc before i erupted, giving me space to deal with things semi rationally .

I think another thing is to take one day at a time, if you have a good day pat yourself on the back and think well done me! If you have a bad day (no matter how bad) don't beat yourself up and feel guilty, this adds to the whole problem, go to bed and think tomorrow's another day I'll try again. I promise the bad days will get less and the good days will take over. I found it helpful to mark on the calender whether it had been a good day or bad, that way in a month or two you can actually see that the good days are winning. Remember it will take time nothing will improve overnight so hang in there.

I started my journey under the biggest blackest cloud that you can imagine and I couldn't see anyway out, I still shudder at the thought of it.

I sincerely hope you find the help and support out there that you need. Keep posting and let us all know how you are doing.

Ellie - nice one! I hope your weekend has been as great as a result of your lovely & successful start to it!

I still haven't done my list. I did print the thread out and it came to 70 odd pages of A4, which is like a book! Maybe we should send it to a publisher "How to do it right, the Mumsnet Way" what do you think?

Ended up at an indoor play area today and when the children had scarpered, DH & I were sipping coffee and he said "You're in a good mood at the moment. It's keeping me calm"!

So I told him about thinking myself into being an earth mother and the film crew! He's done loads to help sort out the house as well.

Supermum, I seem to be taking one chunk of the day at a time TBH. Each day seems to fall into specific sections, so I just tell myself to get through the next segment.

Breakfast - check
Getting out of the house - check
(Weekday) Hometime - check
That bit between hometime & tea - check
Bed time(check)

Do you see what I mean? Just do the next bit well and try not to start worrying about the bedtime stuff straight after breakfast!

Lovely weekend and I'm sure the children are behaving differently as well. DS had a big cuddle on our bed earlier. Just squished his body into mine and played his DS Lite. After I went to make tea, he went back to our bed to carry on playing which made me think he liked it