11 yo DD just hit me and pushed me to the ground.

[reallyupset11yodd]

Looking for some advice. Background is DD does have a temper and has pushed her younger brother and is the most challenging of my children. She is not spoilt but has a lovely family, home, school, friends, a phone and laptop.

DH is away all weekend and I am alone with 3 kids for mothers day. I said at dinner time to DD (11) and DS (9) I was hurt they hadn't given a card or gift for mothers day. DS immediately felt awful, ran to get the gift he had previously bought me and he and youngest DD (2) gave me a cuddle and apologised. DS then told DD she should be doing something (dh had apparently left a box of chocs and card with DD for her to give me). DD chased DS and hurt him, I sent hereto her room and followed her upstairs. I told her she could still eat dinner but I would be taking the lollipops she had saved in her drawer so she wouldn't eat them. She launched herself at me, pushed me to the ground and hit me in the head while screaming swear words at me. I calmly took her laptop, ipad and phone.

She has since told me she wishes I would die, she has pulled all the bedding off all beds and pulled my office drawers out so my work is all over the office.

I don't know what to do. I am sat here crying wondering how it could get to this point. What would you do in my situation?

@Anniefrenchfry

I’m on the fence about this. When I first read it I thought god how awful and why are people victim blaming.

But then I read it again and thought about it. And I also struggle to comprehend the ops approach I don’t believe for one moment there was no time to mention this to any child all day, and then to wait till they sit down for their dinner and instead of jovially saying, where’s my pressies then, it’s been a busy day, to launch into “I’m hurt” and to do it in such a way even a two year old apologises, why would such a young child do that? And then the son has a go at the daughter?

I’m sorry op. But it sounds highly dysfunctional and this isn’t a new dynamic if a two year old knew exactly what to do. They had nothing to apologise for, your son ran from the table, then had a go at his sister. Your toddler felt they needed to hug you and say sorry.

So whatever you said at that table, wasn’t quite so benign. Did you bide your time planning what to say to them?

Yes this is it for me. It has the ring of dysfunction of the kids all sitting around apologising/frantically trying to ‘fix it’ and pushing the blame onto big sister. It feels like a stressful environment which is what I meant by it could have been handled better.

I would have done something like ‘right I know my presents are hidden upstairs! Where are they, quick! I better have for that book I wanted and some chocs!’ To me that would have been more appropriate than sitting round telling them how very hurt I was to the point a toddler had to apologise and hug me. I think very little is achieved by making a child feel bad about themselves. Guilt shouldn’t factor in. It could have been a positive experience with them getting the gifts and mum appearing happy.

@Anniefrenchfry

I’m on the fence about this. When I first read it I thought god how awful and why are people victim blaming.

But then I read it again and thought about it. And I also struggle to comprehend the ops approach I don’t believe for one moment there was no time to mention this to any child all day, and then to wait till they sit down for their dinner and instead of jovially saying, where’s my pressies then, it’s been a busy day, to launch into “I’m hurt” and to do it in such a way even a two year old apologises, why would such a young child do that? And then the son has a go at the daughter?

I’m sorry op. But it sounds highly dysfunctional and this isn’t a new dynamic if a two year old knew exactly what to do. They had nothing to apologise for, your son ran from the table, then had a go at his sister. Your toddler felt they needed to hug you and say sorry.

So whatever you said at that table, wasn’t quite so benign. Did you bide your time planning what to say to them?

This is insightful. The fact even the two-year-old knew to apologise does rather suggest a pattern.

@RJnomore1

I’m noting the continued use of the work punishment with its emotive connotations and an ongoing ignorance towards the concept of consequences of behaviour being and important lesson in some posters on this thread.

Mrs TP is right about the issues of prisoners. In particular ACEs. One protective measure is stability; that means boundaries. There’s endless evidence that not enforcing boundaries creates instability in children.

Consequences am doesn’t mean locking your child in a room and beating them. It means being consistent and showing where boundaries are and enforcing appropriate results when they are broken. The point is allowing ways for the child to learn to regulate their behaviour and to find ways to return from incidents of bad behaviour.

Op, there’s also an important element here of protecting your younger children and making sure they are not either hurt physically in the future or become acclimatised to violence being acceptable. It’s not easy.

All of this.

@Swayingpalmtrees

And what if we find out she is being bulllieecabd hit at school? Groomed on line? Hurt by her so called friends - overwhelmed with life - would we still wish to ‘punish’ her. Surely a child learns empathy, kindness and forgiveness by experiencing those things thenmselves? She is 11 - just a child -

@Swayingpalmtrees

Bullied or not, it doesn’t give her the right to punch her mother in the head.

What if she did that to say someone on the bus? Would it be ok then if she was being bullied??

Did the chocolates materialise or has she in fact scoffed them?

@Flipflopssndsocks

I think TerryP is right. One of mine had an awful temper and was violent. It’s hard. We kept working on bonds and modelling and rather than him growing up to be worse he calmed and is amazing. I was careful not to press his triggers even if they weren’t always reasonable.

I did come down hard on the violence though. After a comparative assault he was told that next time would be a police matter whatever the circumstances. We agreed actions he could take without consequence and it worked.

You have to parent the person in front of you. Mine had a hair trigger temper, sensory issues, rigid expectations and white hot rage. We can laugh about it now but even now I acknowledge that his awful rages were awful for him too and that his more mellow siblings weren’t actually better they just didn’t feel like he did.

You have to parent the person in front of you I think this is what some posters are missing including the OP.

High achieving, anxious, having the expectations of being the eldest - there are many more pressures on OP's DD than on her other DCs and you can't parent them all the same - because they're not the same.

I'm not sure if anyone else has suggested it but 'Get out of my life but first take Alex and me to town' might be helpful. You're dealing with hormones now too OP and this book is very good on helping you to step back and stay calm.

It does sound as though you felt underappreciated and resentful that you'd spent Mother's Day running round after your DCs. If you know that's going to be an issue then perhaps suggest celebrating on a different day when your DH is home and can help with the DCs. When we're running on empty, it's easy for everything to escalate.

This post advises the OP to give her 11 year old "a good smack". I don't know if it's against guidelines but it seems like it should be!

Same post also suggests ‘not talking to her for a while.’ As if that’s parenting advice.

@Innocenta the thing is, I can empathise with a parent snapping and hitting their child. I think it’s extremely morally wrong, never defensible, but I can put my self in the shoes of someone completely losing their rag like that.

So many posters seem to think it’s a sign of weakness to even attempt to understand what was going on in that child’s head.

@Anniefrenchfry

I’m on the fence about this. When I first read it I thought god how awful and why are people victim blaming.

But then I read it again and thought about it. And I also struggle to comprehend the ops approach I don’t believe for one moment there was no time to mention this to any child all day, and then to wait till they sit down for their dinner and instead of jovially saying, where’s my pressies then, it’s been a busy day, to launch into “I’m hurt” and to do it in such a way even a two year old apologises, why would such a young child do that? And then the son has a go at the daughter?

I’m sorry op. But it sounds highly dysfunctional and this isn’t a new dynamic if a two year old knew exactly what to do. They had nothing to apologise for, your son ran from the table, then had a go at his sister. Your toddler felt they needed to hug you and say sorry.

So whatever you said at that table, wasn’t quite so benign. Did you bide your time planning what to say to them?

This is a very perceptive post about the dynamics of the situation, imo. Even if the specifics are not correct, I think it points at the extent of the DD's stress and othering in the family.

...ACEs. One protective measure is stability; that means boundaries. There’s endless evidence that not enforcing boundaries creates instability in children.

ACEs are Adverse Childhood Experiences for the people not in the business! And I agree that firm, consistent boundaries are important.

@Closetbeanmuncher

But she has always had a temper and struggled to keep it in check

Well she's going to have to learn isn't she, because left unchecked she will turn into a violent and abusive adult.

People like pumper don't seem to grasp that people don't turn into reasonable human beings by magic when they're 18, and the "sut a child" excuse is no longer valid.

She had an aggressive tantrum because her mother was going to take her sweets off her, and needs concequences.

I don't think you've done anything wrong OP and if you don't know how you should learn how to safely restrain her, until it's in check.

Absolutely this, it reminds me when I read about a newspaper article about a 18 year old girl assaulted the driving examiner because he failed her test, It was obvious the girl had never had been told no in her life. Sending you hugs OP, it must be awful for you.

We had similar with DC1 - he had a horrendous temper as a toddler and young child which got steadily worse until he could become quite violent as an older child and teen. We went to the GP a couple of times and were referred to the child psychology team on both occasions. He’s 24 now and it’s all in the past, but it was incredibly difficult - unless you’ve lived with it you really have no idea how horrendous it is. Some of the advice on here has been truly awful, so if you’re still reading OP then I would suggest ignoring those posts and make an appointment to see your GP - one that specialises in child/family matters. We were taken very seriously and got some good support but it was far from easy.

OP, it all sounds very very upsetting, I'm sure you are exhausted and upset after it all. I haven't read the whole thread but what strikes me immediately, having quite an explosive child here myself, is the massive anger and shame present for your DD. Anger with herself also, if not mostly, I'll bet. This is not excusing her, this is trying to understand where she is coming from to get to the root of what happened today. It is clear that the punishment plan isn't helpful for this child. There are lots of very valid reasons why punishments are not suitable for some children, and in fact ideally not for any, but certainly they are not the desired route foe this type of temperament. You won't feel like it but I would say if you can pour oil on troubled water, seek to understand your daughter, you will reach her before any punishment does. Wishing you the best. It is very difficult when it has escalated to this extent I'm sure. Remember the oft repeated quote, the children who need the most love ask for it in the most unloving of ways...

Sadly, I agree. Very disturbing to see people implying that the "natural" reaction would be to hit OP's daughter.

A lot of people were raised like this. And in some ways it could be seen as the 'traditional' way to raise a child. We just know from evidence (I know from my own experience) that it isn't effective and just perpetuates the cycle of blame/anger/resentment/etc.

Oh - and it really isn’t always because a child hasn’t been told no.

Sorry! Thanks for that 😁

@BingBangB0ng Yes, I agree. Sorry, my reply to you wasn't very well-phrased at all. What troubles me so much is the dearth of empathy for the child. I don't think it's inherently wrong to empathise with parents who have behaved (even significantly) badly. In general I think we can only learn from empathy, even for genuinely awful people (not anyone on this thread; I'm talking really nasty types...).

So why is it so hard for some to empathise with this DD?

I wouldn’t make the kids feel guilty by telling them I hurt. I would just say, hey where is my hug and card? Or did you get me anything? And please come and help in the kitchen, etc. They are quite young still

This is a good book if you are not aware of it

www.amazon.co.uk/Talk-Little-Kids-Will-Listen/dp/184812614X/ref=mp_s_a_1_2_sspa?psc=1&crid=3AYTXPVRSMG2J&keywords=how+to+talk+to+children+so+they+listen&sprefix=how+to+talk+to+chil%2Caps%2C80&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyRUNBSDgyMzRQUTNaJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMTQzMzA4WlpRMVNPVklHVzNPJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3NzgxMTdLOUg2U1g3OEg5VFkmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9waG9uZV9zZWFyY2hfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1648415860&sr=8-2-spons

[quote BingBangB0ng]@Innocenta the thing is, I can empathise with a parent snapping and hitting their child. I think it’s extremely morally wrong, never defensible, but I can put my self in the shoes of someone completely losing their rag like that.

So many posters seem to think it’s a sign of weakness to even attempt to understand what was going on in that child’s head.[/quote]
All of this tends to trip a lot of 'big feelings' in adults as well as children, tbh.

That was a pretty horrible experience for you, OP, hope you are feeling less shaken up now. On a completely different tack - allergies. Sometimes these only become apparent at puberty, and some things directly affect the brain.

Forget what OP might have said, forget the Mothers Day element or whether she was guilt tripping or backing someone into a corner...I don't think she was but even if she was that is NOT a normal way for a 11 year old to act. No way.

The only way she will learn Is to suffer consequences. Totally unacceptable. If she was mine she’d lose all of her privileges for at least a week. If you don’t punish her harshly for this behaviour it’ll continue & get worse. I wouldn’t move forward until she apologised to me & promised never to do it again. I hope your okay Op. please don’t let her get away with this. It’ll get worse

Again, I bet everyone diagnosing the 11-year-old as a sociopath and future murderer would not form the same judgment about an adult who lost their temper and hit their child once. Even though that’s objectively far more indefensible, because of the nature of the power relationship between adult and child, and the fact the adult has a fully developed adult brain, and an adult understanding of the world.

At the older girls age she should have been aware and reminded the younger sibling to give mum her card and gift. She's not a baby and should have been able to do that. To then assault her mother- I don't see how those who are justifying her behaviour can do so based on age!

@DomesticatedZombie

Sadly, I agree. Very disturbing to see people implying that the "natural" reaction would be to hit OP's daughter.

A lot of people were raised like this. And in some ways it could be seen as the 'traditional' way to raise a child. We just know from evidence (I know from my own experience) that it isn't effective and just perpetuates the cycle of blame/anger/resentment/etc.

Agreed. My parents hardly ever smacked me (they would consider it an absolutely insignificant number of times, and never hard, and it indisputably would not be perceived as abuse), but I found it incredibly distressing as a child, and remember it with distress now.

I wish we could move on from anyone thinking it could be part of the response to a dysregulated child.