Would you leave your 8 year old DS in the library reading while you went to the shop?

[LittleSleighBellasRinging]

This was the dilemma which faced me yesterday. I needed to go and get some milk because we were running out, he really didn't want to come and suggested that I leave him in the library reading. He insisted he wouldn't talk to any strangers, he wouldn't go off with anyone, and he wouldn't leave the building unless it was a fire alarm and he stayed with the library workers.

I considered it very very seriously and nearly let him, but in the end I was too scared. Was I wrong? I think I probably was, I think at 8 years old he is old enough to be left in that kind of environment, but I just couldn't bring myself to cut the apron strings. I would have been about twenty minutes to half an hour.

So. Am I a responsible parent or a suffocating neurotic risk-averse idiot? When and how should I allow him to do this? What do you think?

Whether you agree with leaving a child of this age alone or not, are you all aware that SS will investigate any report of a child under 11 being left alone, even for 5 minutes?

So... for example in the case I mentioned of my office reception area - which, incidentally, is not just some random commercial office, it's the reception area for the local authority, so people are coming and going all the time to pay Council House rent, Council Tax, etc...

The receptionist becomes aware that a young child has been left unaccompanied. As she has been instructed to do, she immediately telephones the local Police. It's a quiet town and the office is in the town centre, so within a few minutes 2 Police Officers stroll along to see what's happening.

They will then stay with the child until the parent reappears. If this wasn't within 10 mins or so they'd be on to SS.

Now there's a record on file, so if someone reports the parent for some other perceived failing in their childcare there's already a record so it's worth a little further investigation...

You may or may not think that it's madness, but that's the way it is.

No, I wasn't aware of that, and thank you.

Yes and it's precisely because that's the way it is, that children are being stifled by over-cautious parents.

It has always been a difficult balance to know when and how much independence to give a child. There is a general perception that if a parent leaves a child unsupervised, it is solely for the parent's convenience as we are all lazy lard-arses who can't be arsed to look after our children properly.

But I think it's the opposite. I bloody hate leaving my kids alone. I hate allowing them to do stuff which entails not being supervised. When I do it, it's because I'm forcing myself to be rational and telling myself sternly that DS is old enough to be left alone while I go to the post etc., and he needs unsupervised time for his own development, but all the time I feel worried until I'm with him again. I don't do it for my benefit, but for his. It's much easier for me to insist that he comes with me and doubtless would be much more approved of by my neighbours, but it would be wrong. I am doing this two or three years later than my parent's generation would have done it, because the threat of state intervention gives me the excuse not to put myself through the worry of allowing him independence. That's the way it is, but it's not right.

I agree... it's hard, isn't it? Every time I allow my boys their 'freedom' I fret until they're safely home again - but I'd never let them know that!

My 2 are 12 and 14, now, and very independent, so however much I 'stifled' them when they were little it obviously hasn't done them any harm.

I do think it's dangerous to give children the impression that other adults are to be feared, and that their own parents are the only ones who can be trusted to look after them properly.

On the subject of paedophiles (which thanks to colditz I will now always think of as 'DIRTY PEEDOS') I do have personal experience, unfortunately, though no harm was done to me or any child that I know. The ones I knew would never approach an unaccompanied child in a public place - they're far too clever for that. They have a long term strategy and befriend the whole family before very gradually developing their relationship with the child.

I was wondering the same thing. As far as I know we are taking other people's word for it that children will be in some way damaged or undeveloped if they are not allowed independence at the 'right' age. Living in an inner-city area with frightening traffic, myself and most of the other parents choose to encourage independence, walking to and from school alone, etc, at around the transfer to secondary school age, and those children take to it with confidence.

I too think it's wrong to give the impression that other adults are to be feared, and, ironically, I end up trying to convince my children that the scary-looking men we pass on the way to school are just poor people who can't help how they look. (The one who attacked us rather blew that theory out of the water!!)Children are very intuitive, and can be scared by people acting strangely, whether they actually do anything or not.My daughter couldn't sleep and was frightened in the street for a long time after that.

SS have to cover their backs to a ridiculous extent too, of course, due to public execution to s workers if they don't follow things to the letter.

However, that info from forty will not change how sensible (or not) I am with my children

You wouldn't believe the flak I had from one or two people for letting my 2 go to the playground without me when they were 5&6. It's about 20 yards from my house - at the end of a private no through road so no traffic - I would be out in the back garden so could hear them over the hedge.

But it was 'irresponsible'.

My best friend is a very experienced librarian and it's actually not that easy to police a library. Her libary recently had a problem with a 'dirty peedo' and it was the devil's own job to get rid of him. A library is a public place and this chap had served his time so the police were unable to intervene, he had every right to be there until/unless he did something wrong. He did eventually slip up but at some cost to an innocent person.

This thread has made me think about why we perceive a library to be a safe place. Would we leave a child in a bookshop while we went to another shop? What about a post office? A cafe? What makes us think somewhere is or isn't safe?

I think the problem is with the presumption that it's ok to impose on the staff in this way. I wonder if those who would leave their children would make a point of approaching the staff first to check if it was ok?

would I be going out on a limb to say well actually most places are safe..

especially when children are equipped with skills for coping with different situations

I think that the chances of anything bad happening to the child would be minimal.

But on the other hand, my reason for never having left a 3 year old sleeping alone with 2 year old twins in a holiday apartment would be that they would be scared if they woke up in an unfamiliar place without an adult...

Great post LittleBellas. The way our young are being raised is a disaster. They're scared of other adults and teenagers, other adults are scared of looking out for them for fear of all sorts of accusation or abuse being ladled on them. We're all locked in our own little family bubble, going quietly mad with the responsibility of managing every aspect of our children's lives and the only children who ARE out and about alone are the neglected and unruly, which then makes society fear that that is what all children are like and the vicious circle continues.

I ALWAYS look out for other people's children, I always intervene if necessary and I refuse to give up on the idea that we might, one day, return to some level of sanity in our child rearing.

No. But then I live in Central London and rightly or wrongly perceive it to be riskier here.

I tend to agree with santa.

I woulnd't presume anything re the library staff. I would expect and trust my dc to behave sensibly and if anything didn't go smoothly that would be my responsibility and no none else's. I woulnd't ask the library staff because that seems to imply I expect them to keep an eye out or they would tell me they couldn't watch my children which I would know anyway.

But that's the whole point, isn't it? You'd be leaving him somewhere you'd be fairly sure he was safe because there's a responsible adult (librarian) there to deal with any situation that arises. You're just not giving that person any choice in the matter. No one is saying that anyone would leave a disruptive child there, or that a child would be left somewhere full of dodgy strangers. If we were talking about an unattended public building you wouldn't dream of leaving your child there.

The one person who doesn't get a choice but would have to deal with any crap is the librarian and that's just not fair imo. It's got nothing to do with stifling the child or not allowing it independence.

but the librarian is there in their capacity to serve the public and that is as far as their duty goes

more likely they will be giving sugary tea to a diabetic having a hypo than caring for 8 year old in that half an hour

it's not expecting anything in the way of exceptional duty of care from the librarian to child sat reading a book

'You'd be leaving him somewhere you'd be fairly sure he was safe because there's a responsible adult (librarian)'

a lot of our staff start out at 16 by the way, even younger on Saturdays, not sure they'd know what to do with a distressed 8 year old tbh

it's a tricky one. I have an 8 yr old that I am gradually allowing more freedom but it's a nerve-wracking process.

I have left him in the cafe at the health club whilst fetching and getting 6 yr old little bro changed after his swimming lesson. 8 yr old boys are not allowed in the ladies changing room, so he couldn't come with me. However I was still on the premises and it is a private members club.

I wouldn't be leaving her there 'because there's a responsible adult'. I'd be leaving her there because we would both feel happy with it. My dds were at th epark alone before age 8 and npt because there was a responsible adult there. Because I consider it safe enough.

public library staff have to deal with the public, that includes children, but they are not in loco parentis. I don;t see the argument

I think dooley1 does! This reminds me of the parents who think it's fine to turn up half an hour late to collect from the PTA disco because they know that a responsible adult (ME!) will be taking care of their child - reassuring them that mum/dad is bound to be back soon.

Different issue, same attitude

So at what age would you leave a child for half an hour in the library?

And at what age would the Social services not feel the need to get involved? I find it hard to believe thjat an 8 year old sitting on a bean bag reading Harry Potter in a children's library is going to attract the attention of the authorities - surely they've got better things to do.

At 8 my dd went swimming with friends, popped to the letter box down the road, went into Tescos to buy me a pint of milk while I waited in the car, went round our small country town with a friend while I sat in a cafe and read the papers, went to buy herself an ice cream on the beach, stayed at home alone for half an hour while I dropped her brother at school, cycled about a half a mile along a quiet road with a friend to visit some horses and eat a sandwich in the field - and sat in the library while I went to the supermarket. Which of these activities should/would I be reported?

I've been thinking about this thread for quite a while.

My feelings re the OP's question is that it depends totally on the level of maturity of the child. And only the parents can really answer that question.

I know that my dd would have been OK, I also know that ds (who will be 8 this year) would not be OK.

My point is a more general one about the amount of freedom that our children have and the interactions that they have with other adults.

When I was a child, this wouldn't have even been a question. At 8 I was playing up on top of the mountain, miles away from any sort of adult supervision.

at the same time i would go to the library, or to the swimming pool with no adult supervision.

At the same time I knew that if (god forbid) any adult had to reprimand me for poor behaviour and my parent got to hear about it, I would be in big trouble.

It seems that nowadays we ask for a lot more supervision from other adults, and very often get quite cross if that adult corrects the child they are caring for (numerous MN threads would attest to this)

I know that the people have said that they would n't expect supervision from the library staff, and neither would I.

I can't help but feel that the environment that I grew up in, with more freedom and also a more diverse range of adult intervention to correct poor behaviour made for happier children that I teach at present.

i would. particularly if the librarian was aware (not asked to look after the child but aware that he/she was mine and i was popping out.