Would you leave your 8 year old DS in the library reading while you went to the shop?

[LittleSleighBellasRinging]

This was the dilemma which faced me yesterday. I needed to go and get some milk because we were running out, he really didn't want to come and suggested that I leave him in the library reading. He insisted he wouldn't talk to any strangers, he wouldn't go off with anyone, and he wouldn't leave the building unless it was a fire alarm and he stayed with the library workers.

I considered it very very seriously and nearly let him, but in the end I was too scared. Was I wrong? I think I probably was, I think at 8 years old he is old enough to be left in that kind of environment, but I just couldn't bring myself to cut the apron strings. I would have been about twenty minutes to half an hour.

So. Am I a responsible parent or a suffocating neurotic risk-averse idiot? When and how should I allow him to do this? What do you think?

And actually, I don't think the possibility of being handed a tract by a religious nut is any reason to stop a child doing ANYTHING!!!!!

Agree 110% with MB. I think that way of life made for a more balanced society, too, by not segregating sections of the community. Checks and balances and all that.

seeker

'So at what age would you leave a child for half an hour in the library?' For a child under about 12 I would ask the staff if they minded - the decision would be theirs not mine. If they hadn't minded mine being left at age 4 or 5 then that would be fine.

And at what age would the Social services not feel the need to get involved? No idea - other than that they do investigate if the child is left home alone under age 11 - even for 5 minutes.

As for the other activities you describe:

Swimming with friends - at our sports centre children are allowed in the water without an adult at 8 and unaccompanied in the building at 12, so I adhered to those rules.

Popped to the letter box down the road - yes - mine did that from age 5.

Went into Tescos to buy me a pint of milk while I waited in the car - mine started walking down to Sainsbury's - about 3/4 mile away - when they were about 10 or 11.

Went round our large town centre with a friend while I sat in a cafe and read the papers from about 9.

Went to buy themselves an ice cream on the beach from about 5.

Stayed at home alone for half an hour while I dropped brother at school from 5.

Went with a friend to visit the horses in the field just along from our house from 5 - but they're brood mares with foals so I told them not to go into the field.

Sat in the library while I went to the supermarket - no - never done that!

Which of these activities should/would I be reported? Same as me - leaving the child under 11 alone

ss would only investigate if someone had reported concern at the child being alone. They would be neglgent is they didn't follow up on someone reporting concern. They would investigate to see if there was a case for neglect, not because being left alone was an issue in itself. There is no age limit (below 16) since the issue is one of can neglect be proven

I heard of a case where the child's school phoned home to be told by 10yo child that mummy wasn't there. She had gone to post as letter. The school was obliged to report to ss and an investigation ensued.

well yes, schools also feel obliged to follow up on such things as they would be in a very vulnerable position if something was amiss and they hadn't acted on it. That doesn't mean that the parent(s) were found to b e negligent

I have been leaving my eldest daughter alone for short periods since she was about 7, and at our previous town the children's library was in the basement of the building and I'd quite happily let her go there by herself whilst I browsed in the main section on the ground floor.

Also not every SS department automatically investigates every report of a child left alone, and the age for an investigation being carried out varies around the country. The authorities I've worked for have had different policies and we always look at other factors. Personally I'd be unlikely to take much notice of a child aged 8 being left unattended in the public library for 20 minutes as long as I was satisfied that the parent had thought about the risks involved. (sort of a mental risk assessment)

I don't really have an opinion on this - I didn't read it fully at the time, but it may be of interest to anyone who does feel strongly about it.

www.guardian.co.uk/family/story/0,,2224007,00.html

I wonder if social services are perhaps more interested in cases like this in rural areas. I know that several of the children in DD1's class are well known to social services - they point the building out and explain why when they pass it on the way to a playdate. I think that their situations may be much more grave than just being left alone for half an hour, but I'm not aware of anything major being done about it. (Obviously I don't know the whole case history and maybe there is a lot being done, but their situation seems to remain the same.)

x post mrspnut...

interesting story

mrspnut - I think that sums it up nicely, really. It's just interesting to me that most people have no awareness of the fact that their child's school will report them for leaving a 10 year old alone. I had mine trained to answer the phone but not the door - that way I could call them if I'd had a puncture or something like that! If it wasn't me on the phone then they were instructed to say 'Mummy is in the bath, shall I ask her to call you when she gets out?'.

i actually think all this reporting is completely bonkers

the whole parental v state responsibility is amd

sometines think the country is run thru the eyes of the daily mail

I tend to agree, but I suppose it's better that 100 responsible parents get investigated for little good reason rather than miss one 'rea' case of neglect.

sorry - 'real'

The Daily Mail certainly has a lot to answer for. I had a minor op at a BUPA hospital last year and complained because it was the only newspaper available in reception! My consultant said @Ahh, well... our Admin lady doesn't have the greatest intellect in the world...'

Nobody has yet said what harm they think thier child could come to if left alone in a children's library for half an hour.

And somebody said about no leaving them under 12 - there are a lot of children who have been at Secondary school for a year by the time they are 12!

seeker - I've said that I don't think that the child would come to harm, or at least that it would be highly unlikely but plenty of others have mentioned their fears. Sue W also asked what would happen if something happened to you while you were away.

The whole argument is quite interesting, isn't it? I would have done many things to allow my children independence, yet I wouldn't have done this at all without mentioning it to the library staff. Other people think it's the most natural thing in the world.

On radio 2 today there was a phone-in about people leaving children unattended - eg leaving a sleeping baby in a car whilst dropping an older child at school.

So shouldn't SS be investigating all those children going to secondary school on their own, then? After all, they're on their own. (What is the logic of it?)

I think I disagree that it's worth examining 100 innocent in order to catch 1 guilty. I think it disempowers parents and encourages paranoid parenting and it disempowers children and obstructs their development. I think resources should be targeted towards cases where there is a real problem. If SS are spending so much of their time investigating normal people allowing their children a smidgeon of normal independence which is what children need (11 years old alone for 10 minutes FGS), then no wonder they have no resources to deal with cases of abuse.

I think the problem is that SS's remit is to ensure abuse doesn't happen, not that parenting is good. But if they are investigating every good parent, they are ensuring that much of the parenting we do, is pretty damn bad. Not allowing your child any freedom, is bloody bad parenting imo. SS are ensuring that that particular brand of bad parenting becomes the norm, because their remit isn't "good parenting", it's preventing abuse and that's obviously their overwhelming priority (rightly). However, that priority isn't being balanced by an equally powerful voice arguing for the majority of non-abusing parents being allowed to parent well. It's a real dilemma.

LittleBellas - ime SS are not spending much time at all investigating cases where a child has been left alone as long as the child is of a reasonable age to be left alone.

If I got a phonecall from a member of the public telling me that an 8 year old has been left unsupervised for 30 minutes, I'd be quite likely to tell the caller that legally there is no minimum age for being left unsupervised and that we wouldn't be taking it further.

If that call was about a 5 year old being left unsupervised for 30 minutes then I'd quite likely arrange to go and see the family to investigate further.

There are always other things that I'd take into account but it wouldn't be a productive use of my time to investigate every call I received.

I'm very surprised that a school would report that. I rang our school recently to ask them to tell my DCs to walk home alone as I was going to be 10 or 15 mins late to pick them up due to a meeting. School secretary told me that was OK as long as I gave permission. They knew they would be home alone for a short period. My DCs are 8 and 10. No-one else I could get hold of at the time. No visit from SS as yet

And my 11 yr old will be walking 2 miles to school from next September, crossing 2 major roads and I am quite happy with that. He will be doing this in company with 4 other kids of varying ages. But I'd still expect it if he was alone as I can't manage 2 school runs on a daily basis and my 4 yr old takes precedence.

the reason children need gradual introduction to independence is that they then gradually acquire the tools needed for independence

ie they get street wise

its no good expecting them to get to 13 and suddenly they demand independence with none of the acquisition of skills for the previous 7 years