8 year old son has said he wants to live with his dad and new family…

[VikSoph]

My ex and I split up when our son was only a year old and he has lived with me full time ever since then.

When my son was younger, his dad was very absent and inconsistent. He had a string of girlfriends, one after another and didn’t really take his role as a father seriously until our son was about 4.

In the last year, he has got a new partner who also has a child from a previous relationship. She seems nice enough and I can see my son looks forward to seeing his dad and his new little stepsister every other weekend.

Very shortly after meeting, they moved in and have now had a new baby and my son is absolutely smitten with his new little brother.

However. My ex and I recently had an argument about childcare costs. We had this fight on Thursday, the day before my son was due to go to his dad’s.

His dad texted me yesterday morning to warn me that when he drops our son off “they would like to talk to me about something”.

When he returned home, he dropped the bombshell on me that he would like to go live with his dad now. He was in tears when he was telling me and when I asked him why he was upset, he said he didn’t want to hurt my feelings.

I told him it was something we would think about and we’d talk about it tomorrow.

I really don’t know what to do or what the right decision is.

My ex has only ever had our son once a fortnight. He used to live ~20 miles away and when he met his new girlfriend, he moved in with her… another 20 miles away so he now lives 40 miles away (a 2.5 hour drive).

His dad has never once been to a single parent-teacher conference, doctor's/dentist appointment or school play.
I have often asked him if he’d be able to have him an extra night here or there, and the answer is always a resounding no. He has never once had our son for a week here or there in the half terms and has never even taken him on holiday.

I understand that they have this whole lovely family unit going on and the notion of growing up with his baby brother is a really attractive one. But I can’t work out if it’s in his best interests?

Am I wrong or just being selfish by wanting to put my foot down and say no?

I'd say 50/50 because that's only fair, but his dad will have to do the 100 mile trip per day to take and collect him from school. See how long that lasts.

Sorry your DH is being a manipulative d**k OP. Awful thing to do to his son.

You need to have a gentle conversation about school, friends etc and say you'll discuss this again when he's older but not now. Then arrange for your ex-DH to have your son for half term in February, May, June and summer holidays. It won't be much fun in reality being in a house where the baby's needs come first.

Don't let this interfere with money arrangements as that's what your ex is aiming for.

I wouldn't be open to my child living with their dad.

But if I didn't want to be seen as the "bad guy" I would definitely suggest a 50/50 split, one week with dad and one week with Mum. Keep your son in the same schools, same doctors etc.

Your 8 year old I imagine, will soon want to come home when he's done with the novelty of dads house..

Your son is 8. Its not really his decision to make and its really unfair on his Dad to put your son in this position. I remember another thread where a poster told of her trauma when her parents split of her being asked who she wanted to live with.

Tbh given everything you have said about his dad I would worry about his ability to parent your son's emotional development. That conversation on the door step actually feels quite abusive, like he was using your son for own ends and I would be suspicious that he has set your son up for this.

I would say a flat 'no' to this. I don't think it is in your son's best interest.

@Lachimolala

I'm so sorry that you're also going through a similar situation.

I really appreciate your input though, because this is my biggest flaw. I always get caught up in the moment and forget the importance of documenting things.

There have been countless times in the past where he has played games because something hasn't gone his way.
We often end up having these conversations over the phone or when he does the drop off. And then it's not until AFTER we've had the toxic conversations where he's shown his true colours that I realise how dumb I was not to get this all in writing.

@CaptainMorgansMistress is absolutely right. I'm a retired psychotherapist who worked a lot with teenagers and young adults. This is a topic I feel very strongly about.

Assuming that they aren't living with neglect or abuse it is (IMO) hugely damaging for children to be able to choose where they live. It gives them a level of autonomy and control that isn't healthy for a child. Anyone involved in child development will tell you over and over again that children need boundaries and allowing them to decide where they live removes the biggest and most important boundary of all. They lose their guaranteed safe space, the place they belong. They become anchorless. IME children allowed to make this decision spend years bouncing from parent to parent to grandparent ad infinitum, never having the security of actually belonging in any one place.

You are in a quandary now. Your son has asked for this and I am sure he means it while he is saying it but he is a little boy. He doesn't actually understand what he is asking for. He needs you to make the hard choices for him.

If I were you I would sit down and give him a cuddle and say what @CaptainMorgansmistress suggests.

@MadamBuxton

If your ex was a good dad who wanted more time with your son, he would have talked to you about it first and not put your son in the upsetting position you describe. This coming immediately after your argument about money doesn’t seem like a coincidence either. If your ex was to split from his new partner it’s fairly obvious he’d be less keen on your son living with him. The fact that you’re even considering your ex’s request in case it’s the right thing for your son shows what a good parent you are

This is the key warning sign. No decent parent would take an eight year olds request and then put them in a position of telling the other parent outright in front of them both. At best he has no understanding of the child psychology and the damage this can do to in effect tell him to chose a parent, and then continue with that when the child was in tears. At worst he is manipulative and using his child as a pawn

@CaptainMorgansMistress

I’ve been an unsettled 8year old in the middle of a split and for me the best thing you could do would be to take all the responsibility away from your son immediately. So say gently and lovingly to him - no darling, this is where you live, this is where your school, friends, hobbies etc are. Of course you can spend more time with daddy if you’d like to and im really happy to help organise that, but this is your home. Daddy and I agreed it was best for you like this a very long time ago. When you’re much much older we can talk about it again but this is and always will be your home. I’d take anything about living with you or daddy out of the picture. Then later, maybe during bathtime when he’s relaxed and chatty and feeling secure, you could say to him - you were a bit upset earlier on, I wonder if you’ve been worrying about upsetting me or daddy?… and figure out a bit more what’s gone on and reassure him that he has no responsibility to manage your or his fathers feelings.

Then write an icy cold email to your ex shutting this shit down immediately and log it with your solicitor.

That sounds so awful, I'm so sorry you went through that! And when you put it like that, I agree. The more I think about it, the more I realise I'm reading too much into this. I was worried that if I was firm and made the executive decision, my ex would use it as even more ammunition to use against me. He's a master of manipulation and games and I was worried he would be able to twist that in a way that comes across as "oh see, mummy won't even listen to what you want. If it was up to me, I would be so much better and considerate blah blah blah".

But honestly, that's just selfish. It's not about me or how worried I am about how I'm going to come across. Of course it's about my son and doing whatever will make this less painful and confusing for him.
I'm the adult and you're 100% right. The healthiest thing for him is to not even have to think about it.

Thank you so much for this input!

I think you should suggest he increases contact and if he still wants to at the age of 9 you will discuss it.
Since he's not there much he really doesn't know what its like full time. A short visit is fun - a longer visit with his dad working and his step mum managing three kids including a baby and changing schools...not so fun.
If your ex was serious about this then he would have spoken to you first and come up with ideas for how it would work - or he would have asked to have him for longer. I think its just a fleeting idea from your son since he is excited about his new brother.

My dad did this all the time when I was a child, used to constantly pressure me to tell my mum I wanted to live with him. Funnily enough that also only started after he remarried, wasn't so bothered when he was living by himself. He used to lay it on thick about how unfair it was that he could hardly see me - he lived 20 mins down the road, he could have seen me any time he wanted, he just could never be bothered. Like your ex he also had form for inconsistent contact and just liked the idea of getting one over on my mum. It's a form of parental alienation and it's abusive in my opinion. I was terrified of my dad who had a vicious temper and used to shout and smack me all the time so the idea of living with him full time was a nightmare but the idea of saying no to him was also very scary. My mum is lovely and tried to do the right thing but she always took the position of "it's your choice, whatever you want". I didnt want to choose, I just wanted her to say no, I wanted her to be the bad guy and take the fall out so that I didn't have to. She eventually did tell my dad no and when he had a baby with his new wife he lost interest in me completely but I should never have been put in that position. It should never be a child's job to stand up to adults like that, it's traumatic having that kind of pressure put on you. Tell you son that the answer is no, I can almost guatentee that he will be relieved the choice is out of his hands. He needs stability and only your home can offer him that. Tell you ex the answer is no and that if he ever puts your son in that position again you'll be getting a lawyer involved. Don't doubt your instincts, you are the adult, you make the choices because you have the experience to take a global view of things and an 8 year old does not. Your ex does not have your sons best interests at heart and its your job to protect him.

Speak to a solicitor about this and agree maybe extended visiting at school holidays and other times but your DS is too young at 8 to live all the time without you and it's not on that his DF has told him to say this to you.

Maybe if DF and his family moved closer or you moved closer together the 50/50 would be an option but it's not now and I wouldn't be putting myself out driving over 2.5 hours every time for a 50/50 visit with an unpleasant ex-SO/DP.

[quote Newnameobviously]@CaptainMorgansMistress is absolutely right. I'm a retired psychotherapist who worked a lot with teenagers and young adults. This is a topic I feel very strongly about.

Assuming that they aren't living with neglect or abuse it is (IMO) hugely damaging for children to be able to choose where they live. It gives them a level of autonomy and control that isn't healthy for a child. Anyone involved in child development will tell you over and over again that children need boundaries and allowing them to decide where they live removes the biggest and most important boundary of all. They lose their guaranteed safe space, the place they belong. They become anchorless. IME children allowed to make this decision spend years bouncing from parent to parent to grandparent ad infinitum, never having the security of actually belonging in any one place.

You are in a quandary now. Your son has asked for this and I am sure he means it while he is saying it but he is a little boy. He doesn't actually understand what he is asking for. He needs you to make the hard choices for him.

If I were you I would sit down and give him a cuddle and say what @CaptainMorgansmistress suggests.[/quote]
Thank you so much for this reply, it's really helped to make me feel more confident about my decision to be firm and take the decision out of my son's hands.

I guess I just needed some reassurance that I'm not in the wrong for believing he is far too young to make this decision.

I do understand he misses his dad and I'm happy he is now developing a good relationship. And for this reason, of course I believe more contact would be a brilliant idea!
Extra weekends, weeks in the school holidays are all things I have been suggesting for a while.
But I do believe the massive shift of going from once a fortnight to uprooting his whole life and moving 50 miles away from everything he's ever known would be detrimental.

I strongly advise you to speak to a solicitor and agree an approach here - one that is not going to backfire and will have a family court on side with you from the off.

I’m normally the first to be supportive of kids spending more time with dads, and making their own choices about where they live. I believe both parents are equal and mums are not the gatekeepers to say yes or no

However, in this case I do think it wouldn’t be right to jump from limited time with dad to full time. Perhaps your son really wants this or perhaps feels under pressure.

I think taking the pressure off him is a good suggestion, as is accepting that if 50:50 can be made to work logistically then that’s probably the sensible step next.

Is this something to do with the fact that he won’t have to pay maintenance if his son lives with him?!

They have 2 kids in their house, your son makes 3. Many families find that a 3rd child is one too many, never mind when one resident parent is a so-far extremely PT dad, and the other is actually just a stepmother who of course is only really interested in her own kids one of which is a super demanding new born (and of course they may have another.)

Your son is far too young to understand any of this. So I would just say to your partner that while you understand your son is excited about his brother, him changing homes so dramatically with a new born baby on the scene will be detrimental to everyone. At 8 years old he is far to young to understand that.

However, more time would be lovely! So let’s start now, by increasing 1 night to 2, then we can increase it gradually to 50/50 by the time he is 11. If he want to come live with you FT after that we can discuss it if course, but we’d both have to feel he’s getting enough individual attention/time to study etc.

Honestly, I wouldn’t entertain it. I’d treat your ex like a ridiculous person who has made a ridiculous suggestion. (Introducing a step son and a new born into a household at the same time is the height of madness, as is switching your son mid junior school.) I don’t think any court would entertain it, but (quietly) take legal advice if you want piece of mind.

With your ex I would add a sharp word NEVER a to put you in that position again - it’s an absolutely unacceptable way to co-parent. I personally wouldn’t use the PP suggestion to have a neutral adult talk to your son right now - this is simply not the right time for him to move houses and that’s the end of it.

no. heres why

he goes every other weekend, so its fun, its like a mini holiday it isnt real

you had an argument over money, so let's face it its about this

just no.

He isnt old enough to make such a big decision

@CaptainMorgansMistress

I’ve been an unsettled 8year old in the middle of a split and for me the best thing you could do would be to take all the responsibility away from your son immediately. So say gently and lovingly to him - no darling, this is where you live, this is where your school, friends, hobbies etc are. Of course you can spend more time with daddy if you’d like to and im really happy to help organise that, but this is your home. Daddy and I agreed it was best for you like this a very long time ago. When you’re much much older we can talk about it again but this is and always will be your home. I’d take anything about living with you or daddy out of the picture. Then later, maybe during bathtime when he’s relaxed and chatty and feeling secure, you could say to him - you were a bit upset earlier on, I wonder if you’ve been worrying about upsetting me or daddy?… and figure out a bit more what’s gone on and reassure him that he has no responsibility to manage your or his fathers feelings.

Then write an icy cold email to your ex shutting this shit down immediately and log it with your solicitor.

This really is excellent advice.

I just wanted to say that my children are adults now. One of them. lives some distance away and DH would have no issue with driving an hour or so each way to see them for a few hours. Let's be honest, if you live in London and meet up with friends, it's an hour each way on public transport. Lots of people travel this distance daily for work or hobbies.
The fact that he hasn't been bothered to do this regularly to see his own child makes him sound a bit callous. He has not been putting his son first yet, and you are right to be wary.
Maybe he wants to look good to his girlfriend, maybe he wants the money, but I bet there's an ulterior motive even if he's convinced himself ( and your son) that he's Dad of the Year.
What does he do for him when he has him? Homework? clubs? Seeing friends?
I agree with the suggestions to let DS go to Dad for longer periods to see how he feels about it. If dad truly thinks a move is in his interests, he will do his best to facilitate a gradual change in existing arrangements. If he refuses to have him (when he is ill/being homeschooled/isolating)refuses to travel midweek to see him/to get him to school you have your answer.
As an example, he could have him from Thursday after school, do a school run on Friday, and take him back to school on Monday morning.

No, I would quite simply say no at this.
My 10 year old boy would likely want to live with his dad if offered the choice, but his father has terrible track record with consistently being in his life since we split- so for this reason alone I would not allow it.

My ex did this to me after we split. I said to my child no, but we would go 50:50 if he wanted to see his dad more.

It lasted 3 days before he decided that it wasn't what he wanted and went back to seeing him every other weekend.

I would be cautious about this because it maybe your ex has influenced your son. That said if it’s something you son really wants time will tell. If he is adamant he wants to go and you stop him it may effect your relationship. It’s a tricky one so I suggest treading lightly rather than hard nos.

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

My dad did this all the time when I was a child, used to constantly pressure me to tell my mum I wanted to live with him. Funnily enough that also only started after he remarried, wasn't so bothered when he was living by himself. He used to lay it on thick about how unfair it was that he could hardly see me - he lived 20 mins down the road, he could have seen me any time he wanted, he just could never be bothered. Like your ex he also had form for inconsistent contact and just liked the idea of getting one over on my mum. It's a form of parental alienation and it's abusive in my opinion. I was terrified of my dad who had a vicious temper and used to shout and smack me all the time so the idea of living with him full time was a nightmare but the idea of saying no to him was also very scary. My mum is lovely and tried to do the right thing but she always took the position of "it's your choice, whatever you want". I didnt want to choose, I just wanted her to say no, I wanted her to be the bad guy and take the fall out so that I didn't have to. She eventually did tell my dad no and when he had a baby with his new wife he lost interest in me completely but I should never have been put in that position. It should never be a child's job to stand up to adults like that, it's traumatic having that kind of pressure put on you. Tell you son that the answer is no, I can almost guatentee that he will be relieved the choice is out of his hands. He needs stability and only your home can offer him that. Tell you ex the answer is no and that if he ever puts your son in that position again you'll be getting a lawyer involved. Don't doubt your instincts, you are the adult, you make the choices because you have the experience to take a global view of things and an 8 year old does not. Your ex does not have your sons best interests at heart and its your job to protect him.

I'm so sad you had to go through this. But I really appreciate you taking the time to comment and share your personal experience. It's so eye-opening to consider how this must feel from my son's perspective. Everything you've said has been more helpful than you realise because you are so right. I am the adult, I have been raising this boy for the last 8 years and no one knows more what's in his best interests than me. But also knowing that me "being the bad guy" and taking the fall out will actually be helping my son to cope with the decision is I think all I wanted confirming.

Again, thank you so much for this reply.

You should tell him that it is completely wrong to have discussed this with his son before talking to you.

I would be saying no. I would be offering more contact if that is what is in your son's best interests.

I wouldn't agree to that.
Your ex has a new family, and now he wants to take your son away. What will you have left?

An 8 year old is not old enough to decide. So I would just tell them no.

@ShippingNews

Actually, since been on Google just to fact check and surprised myself in discovering it's actually 54 miles

Even 108 miles round trip would only take 1 hour and 48 minutes at 60mph.

And nearly 4 hours at 30mph. Don't be a dick.