How many generations back did it go wrong for Arthur

[iwanttobeonleave]

The awful case of Arthur L-H has got me thinking about the long term causes of these situations. Clearly all three adults involved were completely despicable but why? What's caused this and where did it go wrong?

Can this level of disfunction happen in one generation or would there be a history of it if one looked back a few generations?

Just such a completely desperate case, the poor, poor child.

@Bagelsandbrie

I hope we’re not going to go down the rabbit hole of suggesting those who are abused go on to be abusers here. There are far more people who were abused as children (like me) who will end up more sensitive, empathetic and determined to be a better parent to their own children than those who go the other way. We just don’t talk as much about these people / “us”.

Agreed and thank you ad sadly the same.

Some people are born evil.

@picklemewalnuts

I've been really distressed about his mother. She's been written off as a murderess, and the first point of failure in his safeguarding. She had to go to prison, leaving her little boy with his father. Bad enough, but now she's bereaved and grief stricken too. Just because she's in prison doesn't mean she's not lost her baby boy.

But she did kill someone, do you think people who kill, murder or manslaughter, shouldn't get punished if they have children?

It wasn't even the first time she stabbed him.

[quote Fallagain]@CagneyNYPD1 but the other children were also been abused because of the abuse they daily witnessed.[/quote]
Exactly Fallagain. That's why I wrote:

"I wouldn't know where to start helping those children with the long term repercussions of what went on in their family home".

Those poor children who witnessed what was happening to Arthur. I simply wouldn't know how best to support those children now (and in the future) to process what they saw and experienced. I hope that they have access to specialist support and guidance for many years to come. But I fear that they won't.

I certainly wasn't suggesting in anyway that those children shouldn't be supported and hadn't been abused themselves.

TatianaBis
Public school is private school, isn't it?
State= free
Public= Fee paying, or have I been wrong for years?

I get what you are saying OP, I always wonder with people who commit crimes like this “how did you turn into this, who turned you inti this”. If we know how maybe we can stop it. Some abusive people were abused themselves, some weren’t. I think it’s hard to wrap your head around, If you come from a normal family how could you think this was ok, it’s so obviously not ok. So it’s tempting to reach the conclusion that they didn’t come from a normal family. I don’t know the answer.

I listen to a lot of true crime podcasts and the majority of perpetrators do seem to come from less than ideal circumstances. Theres an interesting paper from the MOJ about prisoner profiles.

(assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/278837/prisoners-childhood-family-backgrounds.pdf)

Also agree the dad seems to be getting off lightly here, he seems to be toxic.

I suspect Hughes was always a pretty shit dad, however that didn't translate into a violent relationship as Arthur was initially with his mum who despite all the rest of it, loved him and didn't (intentionally) abuse him. He wasn't in a good nurturing environment though according to reports during his mum's trial. Then when the mother went to jail, Arthur was with his dad but in his grandparents home which again, didn't give the opportunity for violence and abuse from Hughes.

It's when they moved into Tustin's house that the violence and abuse began. It often seems that a lid can be kept on a lot of this abusive behaviour until two abusers meet.

I'm not sure how that starts, how the underlying abusers manage to work out that they are both abusers and escalate each other to what they did to that lovely child. Hughes looks absolutely gormless but I don't believe that it was him being led astray by Tustin or vice versa, they are both equally culpable imo.

@AnotherOneWithNoGoodName

TatianaBis Public school is private school, isn't it? State= free Public= Fee paying, or have I been wrong for years?

Correct

@AnotherOneWithNoGoodName

TatianaBis Public school is private school, isn't it? State= free Public= Fee paying, or have I been wrong for years?

Yes, although I usually associate public school with Eton, Harrow etc and private or fee paying school as the 'normal' private schools.

@Antsgomarching

I get what you are saying OP, I always wonder with people who commit crimes like this “how did you turn into this, who turned you inti this”. If we know how maybe we can stop it. Some abusive people were abused themselves, some weren’t. I think it’s hard to wrap your head around, If you come from a normal family how could you think this was ok, it’s so obviously not ok. So it’s tempting to reach the conclusion that they didn’t come from a normal family. I don’t know the answer.

I listen to a lot of true crime podcasts and the majority of perpetrators do seem to come from less than ideal circumstances. Theres an interesting paper from the MOJ about prisoner profiles.

(assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/278837/prisoners-childhood-family-backgrounds.pdf)

Also agree the dad seems to be getting off lightly here, he seems to be toxic.

Thank you- you've understood exactly what I was getting at.
Thanks for the link, I'll take a look.

Arthur was with his dad but in his grandparents home which again, didn't give the opportunity for violence and abuse from Hughes.

Arthur reported to his school, a doctor and his extended family that his father was going to kill him as early as a year before he died. He only moved in with Tustin 3 months before he died.

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry

Arthur was with his dad but in his grandparents home which again, didn't give the opportunity for violence and abuse from Hughes.

Arthur reported to his school, a doctor and his extended family that his father was going to kill him as early as a year before he died. He only moved in with Tustin 3 months before he died.

Ah right. sounds like maybe more threats and intimidation of the poor child as anything physical would have been noticed I think. I wonder if this is when he stated with the pressure point thing so he wouldn't leave marks?

You wonder why he simply didn't leave him with his mum and stepdad? Was he told to take him? Did he think taking him would encourage happy families as Tustin had two children not much younger?

I've just read the newspaper reports of the testimony of the hairdresser and her partner. The father sounds as bad tbh.

The only thing to take from this is imo in discussing it here or irl, please if you see such a neglected, frightened child REPORT.

(I can see where family complaints can maybe be plausibly dismissed by abusers as "toxic family" issues.)

I think a lot of cases of abuse aren’t like this. Often abuse is the result of neglect or a parental struggle due to their own needs. Sometime that can be due to issues passed through generations, but not always. The fact that the fathers family were so vocal about there being a risk suggests it was generational in the sense that abuse of that type was accepted in his family.

The abuse of the type Arthur suffered was inflicted sadistically and purposefully. I’d be interested in if the girlfriend had any psychological assessments, as I can’t imagine anyone with normally functioning emotional skills and empathy being able to inflict such sustained abuse on someone else.

I agree with others that the fathers role seems to have been overshadowed slight by the outrage at his partner. He’s the one who had responsibility for his son, he is the one who should have protected him.

I think the serious case review might answer some questions when that comes out, in terms of the wide context.

Sorry I meant “was not” in my first paragraph

You wonder why he simply didn't leave him with his mum and stepdad? Was he told to take him? Did he think taking him would encourage happy families as Tustin had two children not much younger?

I’ve wondered this too. In THs shoes it would have been far easier to move in with her without Arthur, and his family did ask him to return Arthur to them before he died but ET apparently said no as then Arthur would “win” because that was what he wanted.

I get what you are saying OP, I always wonder with people who commit crimes like this “how did you turn into this, who turned you inti this”. If we know how maybe we can stop it. Some abusive people were abused themselves, some weren’t. I think it’s hard to wrap your head around, If you come from a normal family how could you think this was ok, it’s so obviously not ok. So it’s tempting to reach the conclusion that they didn’t come from a normal family. I don’t know the answer.

I think it's important to understand cycles of abuse and offending in general, and there's lots of important research on this. I think that speculating on specific individuals, as some of these comments come quite close to doing, is pretty awful though. I can't imagine what the wider family have gone through here; the last thing they need is people speculating on whether it was their fault or if they might have been child abusers themselves. It's in horrific taste.

You could just as easily argue that as Arthur's mother was the link between his father and the boyfriend she killed it must be her influence that causes men to behave poorly.
This notion that women should not be assumed to have agency in the presence of a sufficiently charming, is damaging.
More likely everyone involved was a scumbag. Scumbags are attracted to other scumbags because other scumbags do not judge for scumbag behaviour. They reinforce eachother

Probably unpopular, but I agree.

You can't just build a fantasy to exonerate the child's mother for the crime she was convicted of to suit your narrative!

‘Public’ Schools are a specific group of private schools. The definition has varied over time, but originally referred to just seven independent schools (some mentioned above). All boys’ schools, I think. Nowadays, more schools are included in the term, but not all independent schools are public schools, I don’t think.

It seems many members of his family reported to both SS, the police and school.

I feel physically sick and I had to stop reading. How anyone can do that it beyond my comprehension. That poor, poor boy.

It can change so quickly.

My Grandparents, on both sides, were loving parents and grandparents.

My paternal grandparents had four children. Three of whom are really good parents to their own children.

My maternal grandparents had two children. My Uncle was a single parent for many years. His children and grandchildren are his world.

My parents both turned out to be cruel, nasty and abusive parents. Drink and drug addled so often they actually disagreed with my siblings and I when I was five about when my birthday was.

We were taken by my paternal grandparents when I was 7 and they went on to be excellent stand-in parents to us, especially me (I was the youngest by a long way).

It can go wrong very quickly, and seemingly with no reason. My parents seem to have just been a horrific case of bringing out the absolute worst in each other. Drink and drugs then amplified that to a horrific degree and they actually goaded each other into doing more and more cruel things.

@TatianaBis
Yes Solihull school is a private school ( public). My eldest DS went there

The school his mother went to was a good one. I’ve read what happened with her and it’s clear poor little Arthur had a hard start in life but seemed to be loved.

The fact that that cold bitch ET had 4 children and then a stepchild upsets me so much. Yes it’s projection but I’ve not been able to have children and cannot understand the fairness in life when monsters are able to conceive with ease and I would have loved more than anything to have a child and it hasn’t been possible.

@CagneyNYPD1

Also, the BBC has previously reported that Tustin was pregnant at the time of her arrest. If there is now a baby, I hope that baby is placed with a loving family.

I believe she terminated the pregnancy before the trial.

@JustLyra

It can change so quickly.

My Grandparents, on both sides, were loving parents and grandparents.

My paternal grandparents had four children. Three of whom are really good parents to their own children.

My maternal grandparents had two children. My Uncle was a single parent for many years. His children and grandchildren are his world.

My parents both turned out to be cruel, nasty and abusive parents. Drink and drug addled so often they actually disagreed with my siblings and I when I was five about when my birthday was.

We were taken by my paternal grandparents when I was 7 and they went on to be excellent stand-in parents to us, especially me (I was the youngest by a long way).

It can go wrong very quickly, and seemingly with no reason. My parents seem to have just been a horrific case of bringing out the absolute worst in each other. Drink and drugs then amplified that to a horrific degree and they actually goaded each other into doing more and more cruel things.

I'm really sorry to hear this.

I think Mathanxiety made a great point but I also agree with this

More likely everyone involved was a scumbag. Scumbags are attracted to other scumbags because other scumbags do not judge for scumbag behaviour. They reinforce eachother.