How many generations back did it go wrong for Arthur

[iwanttobeonleave]

The awful case of Arthur L-H has got me thinking about the long term causes of these situations. Clearly all three adults involved were completely despicable but why? What's caused this and where did it go wrong?

Can this level of disfunction happen in one generation or would there be a history of it if one looked back a few generations?

Just such a completely desperate case, the poor, poor child.

[MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry]

what the fuck were they supposed to do? what, report them?

to what end?

do you really think that this kid, who was reported so many times, would have been saved by the hairdresser? One single more report?

If anyone would be so kind as to explain what these comments actually mean, this thicko would be eternally grateful.

[newtb]

Bagels and choo me too.

I once asked a psychotherapist the same question. Her reply was that healing is always possible. This shows that while a => b, b doesn't necessarily imply a.
Going back 3 generations of my family, there's been a female paedophile, ready to toe the family line, get the inheritance etc and a rebel. In my grandmother's generation there was also a 'spare'.
My aunt and godmother deliberately didn't have children she was so worried about the outside chance she'd be like her mother, who when she was pregnant starved herself to such an extent that when my aunt's teeth came through they were black. Her reply when my poor aunt said that she couldn't smile because of her black teeth? To keep her mouth closed. She was admitted to a sanitorium in the 30s, not because of TB as my late mother told me, but because she had been so malnourished.
My grandfather was a pharmacist, and wasn't even allowed to sleep in a bed after they were married, just a single bed. Their first child was born 3 years after marriage. Don't know if there were threats of annulment due to non-consummation, but obviously Grandpa was given rights of access 3 times. I had her bedroom furniture, a single bed. She died just after I was conceived, my mother lost weight down to less than 7 stone, apparently - according to a friend - didn't know she was pregnant and thought it was the menopause. I now have quite a lot of health problems - born 2 months early and my mother let me lose over a pound in weight before anything was done in the nursing home.

The problem is that with no-one to turn to, the children victimised have to be extremely strong not only to not develop the personality of a victim, but to not toe the party line. Then what happens is that the abuse is normalised and internalised, and continues to the next generation. Thankfully I was an only child, which helped me. Had there been a second, I was told, they would have probably been the Golden Child, and I would have been even more 'shit of the universe'.

My aunt said that her mother hated her. It was true. I can remembering trying it on for size, and it explained perfectly the way she behaved towards me, too. As her mother did to her father, she made my late father's life hell. My uncle is very bitter about the way she was treated by her family, but, thankfully doesn't seem to bear me any grudge. Time will tell. He thinks I had a happy childhood, but wasn't around to see. Not terribly comfortable for him to admit the truth.

[PriamFarrl]

@TatianaBis

That’s as may be but you can’t just think that you won’t bother reporting any abuse because nothing will get done.

No-one has actually suggested that.

what the fuck were they supposed to do? what, report them?

to what end?

do you really think that this kid, who was reported so many times, would have been saved by the hairdresser? One single more report?

[ElephantOfRisk]

[quote TheRigatonini]@ElephantOfRisk

That is such a shocking, tragic set of circumstances for your Dad to have to go through. What a testament to him that he protected you all from that and broke that cycle with his own parenting.[/quote]
Thanks. As I say he wasn't perfect. There were times he'd collect his wages and go off on a bender. As an adult I loaned (gave) him money to pay of gambling debts and there were times that I hated him for leaving my mum to worry about how to feed us for a week. Asan adult though I was definitely more able to understand and I probably understood a lot more after he died.

We have great memories though where he'd take us all to the park and organise games etc and my mum would arrive later with a picnic. As the youngest by a few years I remember him taking me to the cinema by myself (pretty sure he nipped off for a pint while I was watching!). I remember him doing a speech at my wedding, he had a bad stutter so I said he didn't have to, and how proud he was. I think he was so proud of all his children.

Someone once said to my mum about how lucky she was, all those children and all of them settled in their own homes with their own families, none in trouble or prison etc. My mum told them that luck had nothing to do with it. I don't believe that entirely, but getting a set of decent values drummed into you definitely pushed us in the right direction.

No-one needs to be parent of the year, they just need to be a reasonable human being with a decent set of values.

[TatianaBis]

@PriamFarrl

Surely you’re intelligent enough to understand her point without it needing to be spelt out:

do you really think that this kid, who was reported so many times, would have been saved by the hairdresser? One single more report?

Reporting can only work if SS acts, particularly multiple reports as in this case.

[ElephantOfRisk]

If you report then it might not be acted upon.

If you don't report then it definitely won't be acted upon.

That's the difference.

[TatianaBis]

And no-one is saying don’t report. That poster was simply making a point. Rhetorically, with question marks.

[ElephantOfRisk]

@TatianaBis

And no-one is saying don’t report. That poster was simply making a point. Rhetorically, with question marks.

Agree. Just pointing out that you have to report regardless. Even though reporting didn't save Arthur, it might save other children.

[TatianaBis]

I know, but it’s very depressing to know that your report may be ignored.

The people around him including the teacher did the right things but the dots were not joined.

[LuluBlakey1]

@McKesson

Apparently his mother was doing PPE at the University of Nottingham, so a high flyer. Bloody hell, awful.

Hardly a 'high flyer'.

[ElephantOfRisk]

It is, but when you report you won't know it'll be ignored, unless of course you've already reported lots of times and I can see how you'd think what is the point if you haven't seen any action.

I suppose you don't know when the balance of reports/action will be tipped, if it drops into a different person's inbox and they act more decisively etc.

I guess it's just about making sure that people still report even if their experience thus far hasn't been great and we all read about this type of case in the news. I've never had occasion to report so I'm not sure how difficult or frustrating it might be. My sister reported her neighbours though for constantly screaming (really nasty stuff) at the pretty young DC (they were in a semi). I think they did get a visit as my sister said that it did notch down a gear and the neighbours stopped speaking to them as it was obvious who'd reported it. Sister had already made neighbour aware that they could hear which made no difference.

[LondonWolf]

Hardly a 'high flyer'

Why not? That’s an intense degree. My ex BF did it. Also at Nottingham.

[ElephantOfRisk]

You aren't a high flyer on MNet unless you are a straight A student at Oxford/Cambridge etc.

It's sad really that for some posters, anything less is looked at as very ordinary.

[LondonWolf]

Indeed @ElephantOfRisk

Academic snobbery, even in a discussion such as this.

[MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry]

@TatianaBis

And no-one is saying don’t report. That poster was simply making a point. Rhetorically, with question marks.

The point that poster was making was that there was no point reporting. That’s plain as day.

[oviraptor21]

The mum was found guilty of manslaughter, in some sort of fight with a grown man where she lifted a knife.

The Dad was found guilty of manslaughter for torturing and allowing his very own tiny frail 6 year old to be brutally abused, and starving him.

How the fuck than their convictions be the same

Their convictions are the same but the sentences are different. She got 11 years iirc ... he got 21.

In terms of joint enterprise, I would imagine that would be difficult to argue as he wasn't there. ET and ET alone dealt the fatal blow. In addition there could be some ambiguity around what the 'end him' text meant.

[YokoOnosHat]

@LuluBlakey1

Hardly a 'high flyer'

Lulu, I’m genuinely interested as to what your degree is in and where you did it if you don’t think that course is high-flying, as to do PPE at Nottingham you need AAA. Presumably you didn’t do PPE at Oxford as you only need AAA for that. Maybe you did SPS at Cambridge, which also needs AAA? Looking forward to hearing all about your time on the punts.

Oh, and

[Da1sycha1n]

@CagneyNYPD1

Also, the BBC has previously reported that Tustin was pregnant at the time of her arrest. If there is now a baby, I hope that baby is placed with a loving family.

It's been reported that she had an abortion at 21 weeks whilst on remand. The first TH (the father) knew about it was when it came out in court.

A previous boyfriend and father of her eldest DC has spoken to the press alleging she became pregnant very quickly in her relationships to try to 'secure' the future. He also alleges she had no maternal instinct. Following the birth of their DC, he wanted to go out with friends to wet the babies head. To stop him going she - according to him - threw herself out the bedroom window, breaking her leg in the process.

Her two older DCs were placed in care when she attempted suicide following the breakdown of another relationship.

It's an utterly heartbreaking case.

[Da1sycha1n]

@Postdatedpandemic

And was there any involvement from the maternal grandparents?

How did Arthur get abandoned to that fate?

Apologies if this has already been answered - yes, Arthur had regular contact with his maternal grandmother until Oct 2019 when the father banned her from any further contact.

[todayisnotagoodday]

CloudyStorms
His mother isn't the one responsible for his death here so I'm a bit uncomfortable with her past being seen as where it went wrong tbh. There are two people responsible for his death.

I'm not sure that this is completely true his mother completely and totally failed him and sent him to his death.

[MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry]

There are differing reports. Some say that TH knew she was pregnant and that he lied to protect her initially in the police interviews but later changed his stance when she terminated the pregnancy.

Someone else also said she had her children removed Before the suicide attempt.

[ScrollingLeaves]

@ElephantOfRisk
A bit off the subject, but is a female Oxford University high flyer who attacked her boyfriend with a knife ( luckily did not kill him).

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-48517157

[ScrollingLeaves]

She was also addicted to drugs and alcohol

[ElephantOfRisk]

[quote ScrollingLeaves]@ElephantOfRisk
A bit off the subject, but is a female Oxford University high flyer who attacked her boyfriend with a knife ( luckily did not kill him).

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-48517157[/quote]
indeed, imagine if she had been from an estate and attending college and in the same circumstance? She would have got more than 10 months suspended. But then they didn't want to interfere with her plans to become a surgeon! I'm not sure if impulsive behaviour is really what you look for in a surgeon?

Always seems to be a link to drink and drugs (or said that there is) Somehow in this case I suspect it's champagne and cocaine rather than vodka/strong lager and heroin, so imo an excuse made rather than genuine addiction. Happy to be corrected but the whole thing stinks to high heaven.

[wiklowarrior]

I think understanding cycles of abuse is extremely important, but to speak out and specify about Arthur's grandparents or any further family members being abusers themselves is just not on and doesn't need to be speculated about.

However, more understanding with regards to abusers/murderers is obviously needed. Why do they do what they do? Is it nature or nurture? A mixture of the two? It'll vary from case to case but there will be patterns with criminals