Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Parenting

For free parenting resources please check out the Early Years Alliance's Family Corner.

Original poster

School want 5yo to be removed.

298 replies

Indecisivelurcher · 01/12/2021 14:36

I'm asking so I can perhaps pass advice on to my relatives. I think the main thing I want advice on is what sorts of things they should be asking of school.

The little boy in question is 5yrs old, in yr2. He has some issues around anger management, basically he flies off the handle and won't calm down. He has hurt a teacher before and he has hurt class mates, things like head butting. He hits his mum. He still has multiple incidents wetting himself a week. Autism and ADHD have been suggested, autism has now been ruled out by private assessment, ADHD hasn't been investigated yet. He has always been a bit of a handful but not dreadful, he can sit and concentrate well, he's bright, he's very kind to younger children.

The issue I am asking about is school seem to just exclude him. My relative has several calls a week to go pick him up, and not allow him back the following day. School have suggested they consider taking him out of the school. My relative thinks they just want to get rid of him now. They want him to go to part time hours but again that won't necessarily help with anything. Since then, they just default to exclusion, which doesn't help him. They don't seem to have a plan in place on how to help stop these behaviours. They have very full classes of 33 kids I think, 1 TA for the class and a part time SENCO. It's like they just want him out of their hair.

Thanks for reading, as I said at the start I am hoping to get some tips to pass on to my relatives to help make sure they're asking the right things of school. What would a good school be putting in place here?

OP posts:
LittleOwl153 · 01/12/2021 17:38

Sorry I havent read everyones comments so might repeat.

Tell you relatives to NOT pick him up / keep him home tomorrow WITHOUT the exclusion paperwork - i.e. make them make it formal. This will help the kid get whatever support he needs. If they are doing this informally it is just making their lives easier but denying him an education...

Secondly - realistically they don't want him there. He is likely to also have a reputation with the kids now and not many friends. Whilst I would not withdraw him from the school I would look at what other local options there are and are feasible (travel etc) so that they are prepared.

By forcing the issue with the constant exclusions, he will likely be offered a 'managed move' owing to the 'breakdown of a placement' which will give him access to schools he wouldn't potentially otherwise get a space in. The Education welfare/exclusion team at the local authority are the right people to be talking to - but they can only act once the formal exclusions are in place.

LittleOwl153 · 01/12/2021 17:39

Oh and no to the part-time timetable - that is also exclusion by the back door.

The must say no to informal exclusion (sending home/reducing hours without the paperwork to support it) EVERYTIME

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 01/12/2021 17:41

i dont think most parents would honestly be able to just say no im not coming to get him , you need to deal with it , i dont think id be able to , it would make me too worried about how it might get worse if i didnt go

Sure, you can go and collect him but you can also insist that they record it properly and do the paperwork. And that they don't start a part-time schedule without any kind of official recogniiton that they are failing to cope.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

5 year olds Families General education General parenting
Sirzy · 01/12/2021 17:43

@CallMeK

The school is unfortunately not equipped to handle special needs children it sounds like and you are going to have to investigate other options. I'm sure there is a specialty school that can help.
The school should be able to support pupils though, the default for every student is mainstream education therefore mainstream schools should be able to cope with the challenges that brings.

It would be interesting to know who it is that has applied for the EHCP.

Specialist school may be the answer long term but he is still entitled to an education in the meantime and getting a place at a socialist setting isn’t easy and it isn’t always the answer

CoachBeardless · 01/12/2021 17:45

@WomanWithDiamondEarring

If he has hurt a teacher and, more importantly, hurt other children then I don't think his needs can be put above the needs of the majority and their right to go to school unmolested.

Agreed.

twelly · 01/12/2021 17:46

Difficult to know what action the school have taken to date - one would think that some attempts would have been made with lower level disruption as more likely the little boy had exhibited lower level behaviour before hand.

However , given the current behaviour of the child I can see why the school are taking this approach. I don't know what they are able to do as far as the law is concerned, but, he is one child in a class of 30 or so children and he is probably very disruptive and is most causing issues for other children. Yes I feel that the school should ensure support for him is in place but, there comes a point where the behaviour of one child is having such a disproportionate impact on others that exclusion or removal is required.

Askingforfriend · 01/12/2021 17:46

Suggest parents look into Dr Ross Greene, his philosophy is that "kids do well when they can" and he had really helpful advice for parents and schools. I asked DS' school, what he needed to do well. Sometimes when he wasn't doing as well it showed he needed more support.

BluebelllsRosesDaffodills · 01/12/2021 17:48

YNBU.

I wonder what would happen if another child eventually retaliated against him?

Maybe he’d stop!

Notmoresugar · 01/12/2021 17:50

I feel so sorry for those poor other children, they must be frightened witless and they're obviously missing out on a lot of education because of his behaviour issues.
He needs to go to a special school that have measures in place to deal with him properly.

Caesargeezer · 01/12/2021 17:51

In my experience the UK school system just doesn't work for a lot of ASD children (mine included). They are expected to fit in and 'behave' in what is supposed to be an inclusive environment. Haha! I've heard so many parents saying they sent their (neurotypical) children to a 'mixed demographic' or 'inclusive' school deliberately, but then are horrified when the children who make it mixed behave in a way that is out of the ordinary.

Obviously no-one wants their children to be hurt at school. Everyone deserves to be in a safe environment. Some children just cannot cope in a mainstream setting and it's not their, or their parents', fault. We need a system that actually caters for the needs of ALL children.

mam0918 · 01/12/2021 17:53

@Theunamedcat

They (school) should have had him assessed awhile ago not the parents 🙄

Are the Exclusions legal? In writing etc? Have they (school) applied for assessment?

Have the parents taken him to the Dr's? You can sometimes get diagnosis via the Dr's but it will need the schools cooperation

Hes 6, in the second year of school and missed 90% of the first year due to lockdown.

He has already been assessed privately and been found not to be autistic.

NHS has a MASSIVE backlog, I applied for assessment for my DS (not violant but non verbal) and he was assesed in January 2020, he still hasn't gotten into treatment yet despite being on the waiting list nearly 2 years - its in no way my, the assesors or the schools fault that there's a backlog.

What honestly do you think the school could or should do in REALITY?

Saying they should of applied for help when he wasn't even in their care during lockdown and thinking if they had he would have been seen and in treatment by now is just so wrong and naive to whats going on in the world.

MollysDolly · 01/12/2021 17:54

@BluebelllsRosesDaffodills

YNBU.

I wonder what would happen if another child eventually retaliated against him?

Maybe he’d stop!

Hmm ADHD does not "stop" if another child reacts.

It's not a get out clause for all of DS behaviour. But the lack of reason, impetuousness, fast anger, rigid mindset, difficulty in social skills, that come from having ADHD, and he is medicated for, do not disappear because another child "stands up" to him.

He's a child with ADHD. Not a naughty bully that's being enabled.

OP doesn't know the diagnosis for this child yet. But if it is ADHD, oh how bloody wonderful it would be if all that needed to happen was another child to retaliate. It's a medical condition. Not a choice.

Lunificent · 01/12/2021 17:55

Tell them to join the Not Fine In School Facebook group.

Howshouldibehave · 01/12/2021 17:55

They (school) should have had him assessed awhile ago not the parents

Schools do not assess for autism or ADHD.

MollysDolly · 01/12/2021 18:01

I can't speak for all counties, but ours does. They were rubbish, and didn't recognise his ADHD. They concluded he had this trait, and this, and that, then rather than conclude what he did have, announced "he doesn't have autism" as if that was the end of everything. It took going to the GP and pushing an assessment that way. But he was seen, in his first school, early primary, at the senco request, by the educational psychologist, who looks for, well all sorts really. Dyslexia, dsypraxia, autism, and yet missed the ADHD which DS is a textbook case of.

ThirdElephant · 01/12/2021 18:02

So, they're basically teaching him that if he misbehaves enough he gets to go home early and have a day off the next day?

I'm not surprised they're seeing no improvement!

Benjispruce5 · 01/12/2021 18:04

School have a duty to protect the other children he is harming also so that’s probably why he is being sent home. The TA is not just there for him and the hours of support needed for a child behaving like that are full time. Our TAs are part times d work mostly mornings as there isn’t usually 1:1 all day funding (ask Boris) so if he’s getting aggressive there is little choice .Definitely follow up a behavioural assessment as that’s not usual behaviour for a year 2.

Benjispruce5 · 01/12/2021 18:06

Educational psychologists are not visiting schools at the moment due to Covid( I know!Angry) so pressing with Senco and high needs funding.

Benjispruce5 · 01/12/2021 18:06

*Press on

admission · 01/12/2021 18:06

Correct schools do not assess for autism or ADHD, what they should be doing is ensuring that the child is assessed by appropriate professionals. I accept that at this time that is easy said and not easy achieved but all the posts seem to indicate that the school is not trying very much to establish a reason for the child's behaviour. The school needs to be pushed into doing what it is supposed to do and helping this poor kid and all the pupils and staff who are suffering because the school does not want to properly engage.

Benjispruce5 · 01/12/2021 18:09

Parents need to push.

Howshouldibehave · 01/12/2021 18:11

@admission

Correct schools do not assess for autism or ADHD, what they should be doing is ensuring that the child is assessed by appropriate professionals. I accept that at this time that is easy said and not easy achieved but all the posts seem to indicate that the school is not trying very much to establish a reason for the child's behaviour. The school needs to be pushed into doing what it is supposed to do and helping this poor kid and all the pupils and staff who are suffering because the school does not want to properly engage.
I agree the school sounds from the OP, like they could be doing more (it is unclear though if it’s they who have requested an EHC plan) but no pushing will get a school to get a paediatric assessment for ASD or ADHD in my LEA-this is done solely through health.
MollysDolly · 01/12/2021 18:11

@admission

Correct schools do not assess for autism or ADHD, what they should be doing is ensuring that the child is assessed by appropriate professionals. I accept that at this time that is easy said and not easy achieved but all the posts seem to indicate that the school is not trying very much to establish a reason for the child's behaviour. The school needs to be pushed into doing what it is supposed to do and helping this poor kid and all the pupils and staff who are suffering because the school does not want to properly engage.
No, they make an appointment for the Ed Psych to come in. And she does the assessment. So essentially, yes, the school "does" it. You ask the school to start the assessment process, via the senco. It's only not done by the school in the sense that it's not done by a staff member. They arrange it. Again, this is how my county works. Might not be nationwide.

I had no idea Ed Psychs weren't visiting schools because of covid. How utterly frustrating.

You can also go via your GP.

Itsalmostanaccessory · 01/12/2021 18:11

@Benjispruce5

Educational psychologists are not visiting schools at the moment due to Covid( I know!Angry) so pressing with Senco and high needs funding.
Yes, they are. The educational psychologist has been in my kid's school this last week.