School want 5yo to be removed.

[Indecisivelurcher]

I'm asking so I can perhaps pass advice on to my relatives. I think the main thing I want advice on is what sorts of things they should be asking of school.

The little boy in question is 5yrs old, in yr2. He has some issues around anger management, basically he flies off the handle and won't calm down. He has hurt a teacher before and he has hurt class mates, things like head butting. He hits his mum. He still has multiple incidents wetting himself a week. Autism and ADHD have been suggested, autism has now been ruled out by private assessment, ADHD hasn't been investigated yet. He has always been a bit of a handful but not dreadful, he can sit and concentrate well, he's bright, he's very kind to younger children.

The issue I am asking about is school seem to just exclude him. My relative has several calls a week to go pick him up, and not allow him back the following day. School have suggested they consider taking him out of the school. My relative thinks they just want to get rid of him now. They want him to go to part time hours but again that won't necessarily help with anything. Since then, they just default to exclusion, which doesn't help him. They don't seem to have a plan in place on how to help stop these behaviours. They have very full classes of 33 kids I think, 1 TA for the class and a part time SENCO. It's like they just want him out of their hair.

Thanks for reading, as I said at the start I am hoping to get some tips to pass on to my relatives to help make sure they're asking the right things of school. What would a good school be putting in place here?

@Indecisivelurcher

Apparently the early pick ups have been an agreed arrangement not a documented exclusion.

It seems like the advice on here is to refuse to take him out unless it's a documented exclusion.

@Indecisivelurcher

Apparently the early pick ups have been an agreed arrangement not a documented exclusion.

The parents' agreement doesn't make it legal.

@Indecisivelurcher

Apparently the early pick ups have been an agreed arrangement not a documented exclusion.

Ok but they are still illegal

www.ipsea.org.uk/Pages/Category/exclusion-from-school

OP if that is the case your relatives should inform the school in writing (which gives them evidence) the school are illegally excluding DS and they will no longer be picking DS up early unless they are given formal exclusion paperwork.

@gogohm

He deserves an education but so do his classmates. They will have put in interventions and spoken to the parents multiple times before reaching this point. What setting are they suggesting - have they offered a place at a more suitable school? It's a difficult situation all around but my advice is to sit down with the senco and ask what they are suggesting, bringing in Ed psych if needed.

How do you know they have put in interventions? OP says they are sending him home several times a week - when would they have time?

The school isn't in a position to offer places at any other school. If they had started off an EHCP application some time ago, it may well be that the child's parents could ask for a special school placement to be named, but they're not at that stage currently.

Some schools have invited the parent in to sit 1-1 with the child, either full time or for mutually agreed hours. Obviously Covid risk assessments would have to be carried out, but is this worth suggesting to the school and the parent?

I'm coming at this from the other side. I did absolutely everything I could to get a child removed from my son's school and I dont feel even a little bit sorry. He was incredibly violent, and my son was the target. He was 5 and the other boy was a year older but the school still spent manage to keep him away from my son. After the third incident of my son being cornered in the toilets by this boy, I called the police for help and I called social services and I called everyone I could at the council to get the kid removed. My son wasnt the problem so I certainly wasnt going to upset him by removing him from his friends. This other boy has very violent outbursts and was beating a lot of children. The school were dealing with calls from parents every day about him.

The school of this child will be having calls from other parents who want him kept away from their kids. What action have his parents taken? Has he been taken to a child psychologist, is he in therapy? Are they considering hiring a one to one to go into school with him? Or do they just expect the school to deal with and sort out his violence toward others?

@Itsalmostanaccessory that sounds bloody awful. I don't want to put too much detail but this situation is absolutely nothing like that AT ALL. Honestly.

@TurquoiseBaubles I wasn't sure where to post as he's not got diagnosed special needs. Do you think I should ask for the thread to be moved there?

@ComeAllYeFaithful

Exclusion is a stands response to violence. Nobody should be hit, adult or child and it’s not fair to have him around if he’s behaving that way, so I do understand why they are doing that.

It sounds like he would be better in a school more suited to his needs x

This

State primary schools are on their knees staff-wise, money-wise, and without a statement which can take years to get, there will be no funding for a dedicated TA. And if the school tries to force a class TA for many to become a 1:1 to a child who is actively hurting grown ups and other children, frankly, they may refuse. TAs are hard to get right now; the school will not want to lose a good TA. 1:1s are hired specifically for the job ... but funding is required.

Sounds like you should be pushing for a statement, a plan, and potentially a referral to a special school Reach out to your Local Educational Authority if the school isn't being receptive to helping you get support for your child.

The majority of the things I have heard about have started at play time and escalated. The problem seems almost always to be when he's told that he's starting to go too far and told to calm down or think of his behaviour. It almost always has the opposite effect. Then the responsible adult might use their hands, which he kicks off against, and it all just snowballs.

And yet the private doctor says he doesn't have an ASC never mind anything else? Odd because that's how my DS reacted. The playground was his worst trigger place, all those children milling about and no structure. He enjoyed it, he was very sociable and outgoing, but when things went wrong (which they easily did) he was a peril. Putting hands on my DS was dangerous, like many kids with ASCs he would react as if it was a deliberate attack and just as strongly if it was a child or an adult. Only thing more dangerous when he was angry was getting down on his level and talking face to face (thank you SuperNanny!)

Meanwhile his class teacher - who had also been on the reciveivng end of some of his worst behaviour - described DS as "a joy to teach" a lot of the time. We were unusually lucky becausethe NHS pediatritian actually came to observe him in school, and she saw his glorious worst (class Xmas party).

I suspect your rellies wasted their money on that private doctor. Not that we can diagnose by internet, of course. Just saying!

The comment you made about this often starting around playtime should be something the school looks at, it sounds like he is managing the routine elements of school but struggling with playtime/ engaging with other kids and their interventions aren't working. It's takes around 90 mins to truly calm following a loss of control and I wonder if their responses aren't helping. What would your relative think to suggesting that he stays in at playtime for a while and see what happens. They need an approach around what they do as he begins to lose control, which doesn't include telling him to calm down or that he is naughty, all that does is add to his distress at the moment. It may also be worth asking the school what is working for him in the school day and seeing if they can do more of that. My son's primary school experience was really impacted by a child who had adhd but when you watched what they did they were missing so many cues, the good news is that they are doing really well at secondary.

It's worth being aware that, even when paperwork goes through and a place is agreed, special schools 9not having elastic walls) may well have significant waiting lists. While the child is on the waiting list - locally 2 years for some schools - they have to remain in their existing setting.

The school should be applying for an EHCP with funding for 1:1 support [though the school has to fund the first several thousand £], and putting in the legwork needed to keep everyone safe (safe places, team teach training for staff, staggered breaks if instances occur at break time, differentiated curriculum, specific interventions etc etc). Documenting the exclusions will actually help them with this as evidence for the EHCP.

under no circumstances should the parents move the child unilaterally. If the school wants a move, they MUST be forced to make it a 'managed move', or alternatively a move to a PRU or similar, rather than simply pushing the responsibility on to parents.

Yes you can get the thread moved. Yes a lot of parents go to SN threads even without a diagnosis, sometimes for help in getting assessments etc because it's not easy to get seen.

the school of this child will be having calls from other parents who want him kept away from their kids.

And maybe they could have dealt with that by taking proactive steps to give him proper support, which would have been a win-win.

I understand what people are saying about protecting other children but if the school want to exclude him they need to do so formally. Doing what they are doing is just sweeping things under the carpet and allowing the problems to reoccur. I agree that school funding is problematic but it's is unacceptable that a child has been being informally excluded for what appears to be a long time. An EHCP application should have been made earlier on to get him the support he needs. If the school cannot meet his needs they need to be clear on that, so the LA can identify a school that can. In the meantime if the problems are mainly at playtime could the school look at a nurture group?
Fwiw my son really struggled at reception and had some violent outbursts. Unlike on Mumsnet the other parents were actually really kind about it, no one rang the police or social services. The schools (v good) senco applied for an EHCP which was in place before he started in year 1. He is now in KS2, doing fantastically and is a much loved member of the class. He just needed the right support particularly around playtime.

looking into similar private assessment for AdhD

Where have they got with this? If you are paying, this can normally happen very quickly.

Who has applied for the EHCP?

Having been in a similar position with DS (ADHD) what should be happening, and what you have to accept and be the bigger person, are two different things.

DS was at a private school. Class/year was abnormally small, (6 children) so everything he did was more noticed and gossiped about. The other children were actually really nasty to him. Goaded him (who doesn't love to wind up the guaranteed reactive child then cry victim ) but there were plenty of incidents where he was just poorly behaved independently. It was like he was some kind of self fulfilling prophecy, labelled as the naughty kid, so that's who he was. And the school should have done this, that and the other regarding senco, in school support, parental meetings, and failed to deliver.

The deputy was an old school, up his own arse, "discipline the ADHD out" git. Declared "we don't have badly behaved children at this school". Who was also far too close to a mother, whose child was in DS' class. She complained continually that she wasn't paying fees to have child "like that" there. They didn't have a proper senco and she somehow got appointed "acting senco". I say somehow, it was quite clear why. The deputy, and her, rallied round to recruit others for support in their "get rid of him" campaign, and DS just got ostracized.

The head was newly appointed and actually a lovely guy. But lacking in backbone and didn't want to stand up to the deputy (who'd been there for years and acted very much like it was his school, everyone seemed intimidated by him). We had a meeting, and he said, I know they're going to instigate so many complaints I'll be forced to show action. They won't stop until he's excluded. That's when they'll be happy.

I thought about it, and agreed, I couldn't be arsed to fight them every day for the next two years. It would be better if I removed him, by "choice" than to have permanently excluded on his record. So I did. The head even said, off the record, if it was my son, I'd take him out. Quite the admission of his own school.

Is it right, or fair? No. Do I want my son treated like that by arsehole adults and their carbon copy children 5 days a week, and pay for the privilege? Also no. So I picked my battles. He's now in a great school.

So, my advice. The school sounds shit and unsupportive. Do you think they'll suddenly become fantastic? So why the battle to keep him there, when they'll always be looking for a way to be shot of him. It will just be miserable.

The only thing I'd have done differently, is report DS old school, as now, seeing how things should be done, I realise just how appalling they were. So take the boy out. Then throw the fucking book, as publicly as you can, involving governors, report to the board of education, inform your local MP.

this pretty much happened to a friend of mine at work , the school pretty much was phoning every other day to report her son had been violent or disruptive and they wanted her to come and get him , in the end he spent more time at home than actually there , hes still in junior school , it was very much she got the feeling they just didnt and couldnt deal with him , and in the end if i remember rightly they just excluded him and then agreed to have him back 2 hours of a morning , which is pretty pointless , she did say she felt they would rather he just wasnt there so they didnt have to deal with it . she did manage to get him into a special needs school and hes done much better since then

i dont think honestly some mainstream schools have the resources to deal with really challenging children and it takes away them being able to teach and safeguard the others everytime theres an incident

The school is unfortunately not equipped to handle special needs children it sounds like and you are going to have to investigate other options. I'm sure there is a specialty school that can help.

The problem seems almost always to be when he's told that he's starting to go too far and told to calm down or think of his behaviour. It almost always has the opposite effect. Then the responsible adult might use their hands, which he kicks off against, and it all just snowballs.

The school needs to seriously re-think their approach to this. In our behaviour training sessions, it's drummed into us time and time again that telling a child to calm down is one of the worst ways of handling anger. It's almost guaranteed to have the opposite effect.

They should be looking at possible triggers for the anger and working on strategies to reduce them. Waiting until it's already happened and then saying, "Now calm down, Billy. Think about your behaviour!" is as useful as a chocolate fireguard.

Sending him home is the lazy option - and I say that as someone who's been on the receiving end of hitting and kicking outbursts in school on several occasions. I'd suggest your relative looks around for a more supportive school. The current one sounds hopeless.

@Streamingbannersofdawn

The laws on exclusion are clear...they are either excluded formally, for a fixed term (what we might have called a suspension, a day, a week etc) or permanently. It should be properly documented every time.

Anything else is an illegal exclusion, asking a parent to pick up early or just not to bring him in tomorrow is not allowed even if the parent agrees.

The school can of course exclude him for things like this but they must consider if any SN (diagnosed or otherwise) is unsupported and a factor in the exclusions. They cannot 'edge him out'.

SENCO needs to be involved and outside agencies. Does he have a plan in place? If they cannot meet his needs then they need to gather evidence of the fact to ensure that the child can access provision that can meet his needs.

hmm i get the bit about it not being legal , but on the other hand its difficult for the parent of the child surely ? i mean if you are at work and the school is on the phone to say your son has just hit a teacher or fellow kid and is now locked in the toilet crying or screaming in a state , and you need to come and take him home , i dont think most parents would honestly be able to just say no im not coming to get him , you need to deal with it , i dont think id be able to , it would make me too worried about how it might get worse if i didnt go

OP despite DS not having a diagnosis he does have SEN. I wouldn’t change schools while going through the EHCP process.

There is no legal definition of ‘full’ and being full alone is not enough of a reason for the LA to refuse to name a SS in the EHCP. The LA have to prove the school is so full placing a pupil there is incompatible. If they can not do this they can, and must, name the school regardless of the school’s objections (wholly independent schools aside). Obviously there comes a point when they can prove they are so full it is incompatible but many LAs refuse SS places because they say there aren’t any places yet can not evidence incompatibility and parents who appeal are successful. Many LAs also find a place when parents start to mention expensive independent and non maintained placements.

itsallgoingpearshaped Statements don’t exist in England anymore, it is EHCPs, and the school can apply for high needs top up funding whilst waiting for the EHCP to be finalised.

At my child’s old school

There was w little boy who electrocuted other children. Bu cutting plug wires etc. He threw tables at other children’s heads. Knocking them out and them needing ambulances etc.

He wasn’t excluded. He was given his own space with walls. Where they put up lots of his pictures. He had 1/2/1 care. Yet he was still somehow able to hurt other children significantly. He left scars. He hospitalised others.

So if our school can do something for him. He wasn’t diagnosed with anything. Just badly behaved apparently.

They have formal avenues they must follow.