My daughter hurts me :(

[Sohurtbyitall]

I don't know what to do. DD is 3, she's witnessed domestic abuse for the first two years of her life and seen her father beat me to a pulp.
I managed to find the strength to leave him but during this time things have just gone down hill.
She's so angry and upset when she has to see him, I'm currently vehemently fighting him through the family court.
She punches me, slaps me, kicks me, and the worst thing she did this weekend was drag her finger nails down both my arms and pinched me so hard, I just sobbed :(
I've tried to seek counselling and play therapy for her but because she's having contact with her perpetrator father they can't intervene.
I've asked childrens services to help me but it results in NFA letters time and time again. I just don't know what to do, I can't cope anymore.. The anger and hurting me, I've already been through that with her father I can't have this from her also.
I picked her up today from nursery and the room manager said she's not been her normal self and has been really distracted, she's a big personality at nursery so it's really noticeable. She said she's seen this before and it's almost like she's lashing out at me for making her see him.
She's so troubled and I just want to help her but I feel physically and mentally exhausted.
What else can I do?

@Kittykat93

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

It’s supervised contact and the court authorises it.

OP sorry I haven't read all the replies but:
My children saw this stuff
They copied it when we were in the lowest parts post separation
They still show some traits/ use some language which his exactly

But we are all ok and away from him and our own little team supporting each other.

Also- they have seen me cry a lot. He used to send terrifying messages at times I believe he knew would cause upset- bedtime/ start of work- about how he'd take them etc. I cried and said I felt worried about 'things' and someone had been nasty to me and it wasn't acceptable but it made me sad. Now my middle child will even teach me the calm down breathing I taught him 😂

Keep going 💪🏼💕

I'm so sorry.
How is this monster allowed any contact.
😳
Sending a virtual hug.

I don't have any specific advice but I want to commend you on putting your child first and leaving an abusive relationship. Keep fighting with the contact arrangements, he's not safe to have around your precious girl.

I really hope things get better for you soon.💐

I would suggest restraining her when she becomes angry. Wrap your arms around her and also one or both legs if necessary to stop her lashing out. Just sit there, let her scream it out, then console her when she’s stopped struggling. If you can, you need to break the habit of this. In addition to being awful for you, she will feel very bad about this. Young children feel very insecure when they are the one controlling a situation. They relax (to some extent given her situation) when a loving adult is in control. She will resist you restraining her, but ultimately, it will help her to feel safe. Do you feel you could do this OP?

I relieved to read that her father’s contact is supervised. It’s horrible tgat she has to go.

I'm so sorry you and your DD are going through this.

Please ignore the posters telling you to discipline her more strictly. She has learned her behaviour from you and your ex but she is still learning. The more she hears and sees that you love her no matter what and sees you using the right behaviours, the more safe she will feel. You're the balance to the badness from your ex and if she is still having contact she needs that as much as ever.

You might find it helpful to start a daily behaviour diary for your DD where you write down each day how things have been. This sometimes helps identify any other triggers there are for her as well as contact. Anything new or where she doesn't know what to expect is common.

If you get a child mental health referral they are always nervous about one parent using them against the other if the courts are involved so its worth trying to emphasise this is only about helping your daughter. You shouldn't need to of course but it might help her get the help she needs.

You have been so strong. I agree with the posters saying you need to look after yourself to be able to look after her, so maybe you could look at some counselling to help you process what you have been and still are going through too?

I can't get any therapy type help for her because intervention isn't appropriate when the source of trauma is still present.

@Sohurtbyitall I supppose if things change it might effect what happens with the family courts or whatever. Other than that, any therapist would be willing to help I imagine- ask around.

People can have therapy when the source of trauma is still present, to help them deal with the trauma they're experiencing/experienced. It might not be as effective in healing trauma but it'll help with what they're currently dealing with.

You can't live in fear like this.
The court shouldn't be allowing any visitation with the effect on the DC.
You sound terrified and under immense pressure.
Are you financially stable? Could you work online? Would you consider moving further maybe NI or even Ireland?
Isn't there an inclusive module for a 1-1 in preschool for her emotional fears, it'd really help.

@Sohurtbyitall

He wants to progress to unsupervised but has been denied on 3 seperate occasions. He's claiming I'm obstructive and also parental alienation. Despite the fact I take her every week without fail and that I suggested the contact centre. He's claiming to want shared care of her. Prior to fleeing we had childrens services involved who stated contact wasn't safe for DD and they recommended that I live as far away as possible from him. He's claiming I just picked up DD and unilaterally removed her from the home to be spiteful. Without being too outing and saying what he exactly he did to her. He's also abused her, physically. One incident where had he carried on he would've killed her.. I can't say exactly what it was he did as it'll immediately out me, but it was horrific enough for childrens services to tell me if I continue in a relationship with him an emergency protection order would've been made.

How the hell can they have her see him after he did this to her??

My friend’s dc, who was in no way traumatised used to attack physically at a similar age so your dd really isn’t destined to become anything other than your lovely dd. She is so little and has so much to process and you know she loves you so much.

You’re her safe person and this so why she can act out with you. I don’t have experience of this. But I would also think restraining your dd until she is calm and then cuddling her to be the least destructive as she will then not have to feel the shame of hurting you.

What therapy can you access for you?

@Sohurtbyitall

Yes there's an interim child arrangement order in place at the moment.. He has supervised contact. She punches, kicks and screams when I tell her it's a weekend she is due to see him. It's this past week where its just escalated and its like she completely hates me.. When she really hurt me at the weekend I couldn't help but cry and she stood for a few seconds then put her arms around me and said sorry and that she isn't horrible like her daddy. She's 3, I didn't expect this from a 3 year old.. She's not 13 and in control of what she can and can't do and say.. I called children's services yesterday and just sobbed and said I can't take anymore and I need help... I said please don't send me another no further action letter. I can't get any therapy type help for her because intervention isn't appropriate when the source of trauma is still present. I'm so close to just giving up.

I would film her discreetly when you're telling her she's to see her "father" I use that word loosely....any reasonable social worker would see this is damaging to you both

@StellaCinnamon

then put her arms around me and said sorry and that she isn't horrible like her daddy

That is absolutely heartbreaking

So sad, His damage is still being done and having ramifications even after you found the strength to leave him. Utter parasite I pray/hope he doesn't/can't have any other kids!

@Sohurtbyitall

So I've never prevented contact, I was the one who suggested contact centre against the recommendation of children's services. I was advised to by my solicitor because I would've appeared obstructive. Her contact is generally OK with him, she is reluctant to go in at times and she has told the staff she's frightened, but it's all been documented in their reports. After contact she's subdued for a few days and seems down and distracted.. The nursery actually called me once to ask me had it been a contact weekend as DD was so down and not her usual self. They have documented everything.

It needs to stop.

Poor thing.

@Sohurtbyitall

It's not as easy as just stopping contact. Even with professional involvement. The standard guidance is to stop contact if it's proving harmful and to take it back to court.. But it's easier said than done.

Well it's clearly proving harmful. So sad.

Best wishes OP. Your poor little girl.

I hope you can find a solution soon, and the contact can stop. And your daughter and you can heal.

What a crappy system. It should be straight forward. Especially when he had been physically abusive to her too, to the point where he could nearly kill her if he carried on, as you say. You'd think it'd be a no brainer that he shouldn't be allowed contact.

@EmeraldShamrock

You can't live in fear like this. The court shouldn't be allowing any visitation with the effect on the DC. You sound terrified and under immense pressure. Are you financially stable? Could you work online? Would you consider moving further maybe NI or even Ireland? Isn't there an inclusive module for a 1-1 in preschool for her emotional fears, it'd really help.

How would this work?

Just wondering

I saw on a previous thread someone said the same - move to Ireland
But what happens when the bastard finds them? Is it harder to force contact that way?

OP I send lots of good wishes
So sorry for you and DD xxxx

I know this sounds counterproductive but I think the best response is to respond with kindness and love as best you can.

When she hurts you, gently remove her hands from you or yourself from the situation if you can and tell her that you are sorry that she's angry/upset etc but that our hands are for being gentle, tell her that you love her and if she is receptive give her a hug.

When she is calm repeat and practice being gentle with her (gentle touching of faces/hair, massage etc). Also come up with some ways she can express her anger without hurting you and practice them while she is calm. Remind her gently when she is angry about the techniques you have been practicing with her.

It's ok to express anger but there are right ways and wrong ways to do it.

@Sohurtbyitall

Yes, I've tried to get referred for play therapy multiple times and every introductory phone call I've had says intervention isn't appropriate when the root of trauma is still present. I work in the NHS and have a colleague who works in safeguarding and they said perhaps the best stage is trying to get referred to a Paediatric mental health specialist.. But I just don't know.

I understand I don’t know a ton about 3-year-olds with these needs but yes, at any other age, we would say she absolutely needs a mental health specialist. Maybe they can “deny” her “play therapy” but no way in hell can they deny her a mental health professional, and I mean a full licensed doctor MD PsyD PhD psychologist or psychiatrist because you have a 3 year old showing a lot of symptoms of an adult with complex PTSD:

Physical abuse of family members
Then sincere apology to abused family, which is more trauma for them and family
Deep fear of sudden loud noises
Fear of being left alone
Lashing out (even violently) when “forced” to face trauma

I mean, if you mentioned the symptoms with no age or gender, they might think we were talking about someone who had seen combat in Afghanistan. The real problem here is them denying your child any help, but I suspect they may have been trying to say, “Play therapy won’t work. You are in an emergency situation, and she needs emergency psychological help.” I think your friend is right. Have you been to the GP, told them all you’ve told us (all her symptoms and when they happen, how violent it is), and see if it leads to emergency psych help?

I hate to sound alarmist but this sounds like it’s currently beyond play therapy and health visitors (maybe play therapy will be recommended after the psychological assessment and some “right now” type help).

I’m so sorry OP. It just never ends for you. Also people who are saying “just stop the visits” don’t understand: you have been ordered by the court. So what do these people recommend? You stop the visits and risk the fact you’ve disobeyed the court and could risk he gets UNSUPERVISED visits, or maybe even some custody?!? That’s a fate worse than death; he’s already horrifically abused you both. Please ignore the comments saying you aren’t keeping her safe. The court isn’t keeping her safe. They’re really falling down on your case. You’re doing everything you can.

@Sohurtbyitall

Supervised in a contact centre, no overnights as of yet. Three seperate judges have said unsupervised access is not appropriate until cafcass make a recommendation.

I think he should not have visits as your little daughter obviously finds them so distressing. Why is that is not taken into consideration? It seems the arrangement is all about his rights but a violent man surely forfeits rights.

I am so sorry you are in this dreadful place at the moment and echo the poster who said she wouldn't blame any woman in your position for doing a runner. Is that possible in your case?

You are such a brave, strong woman.

The faith in the family court and CAFCASS would be touching if it were not so tragic.

OP, get yourself a barrister who is fully versed in domestic violence against women and children. This man should not be having contact with your child. She is being retraumatised and forced to keep reliving the trauma she suffered and which she witnessed. She's a victim and needs protecting.

Contact will be pushed for unless you have the right person representing you and ensuring that the proper guidelines/procedures and laws are followed.

If there have been three recommendations for no unsupervised contact and the child is showing trauma following contact, then the supervised contact should be cut.

Are you going through court at the moment? If you are I would ask your health visitor & the nursery to write letters to Caffcass stating what the access is doing to your dd & how much she has changed since the supervised access has started. Your dd should be the main thing in this & if it is upsetting her so much then it either needs to stop or something needs to change. How do you think she would be if you were able to be at the access with her? I know you & your ex have problems between you but you are both adults & would have to put you difficulties aside just for the time e of contact. Have you seen the reports from contact by Caffcass? How does your dd behave while she is with her dad? Could you buy her a cuddly toy that she could take with her that you could say has your love & will keep her safe? It must be terrifying for a 3 year old to be forced to spend time with a man she is terrified of, the outburst when she comes home is almost like shaking a bottle of fizzy pop up all day, the pressure builds up & up until you open it & it explodes everywhere.

It seems to me that your DD's behaviour is a form of stress release similar to self-harm, but she's harming you instead.
So it doesn't have a reason that she can say.

It must be horrible for her to have to have the contact sessions as she will be on edge all the time.

I think her 'bragging' at nursery is a result of her feeling relieved at having got through another session with him.

I really hope you can get him barred from seeing your DD at all.

You can't up sticks and leave the jurisdiction. This would backfire in the worst possible way. Do not take this advice.

@Sohurtbyitall, have you tried art therapy?

OP, get yourself a barrister who is fully versed in domestic violence against women and children. This man should not be having contact with your child. She is being retraumatised and forced to keep reliving the trauma she suffered and which she witnessed. She's a victim and needs protecting.

Contact will be pushed for unless you have the right person representing you and ensuring that the proper guidelines/procedures and laws are followed.

If there have been three recommendations for no unsupervised contact and the child is showing trauma following contact, then the supervised contact should be cut.

THIS ^^

It's easy for the court to lazily sign off on an arrangement that is only about the man;s right to see his daughter, with no thought whatsoever to the welfare of the child.

A good DV barrister might be able to put an end to this horror show.

A guardian ad litem might well be a help too - a barrister could advise.

Ask Women's Aid for barrister suggestions.

Another place to look is Rights of Women.
rightsofwomen.org.uk/

Could any of your contacts sign post you to local support in your area for adoptive/fostering parents with similar issues? Thats the only similar situation I could think of where the child has potentially gone through a severe trauma for an extended period then a massive change in circumstances then having to go back to that trauma for supervised visits to a birth parent. I found this www.pac-uk.org/training/event-registration/?ee=469 in my googling which would seem like a helpful event if you were allowed to attend.

I would agree with your colleagues for starting the process for child mental health input however I do believe thats a long road.

I guess I was trying to think if there was some way to have a safe space for her to get out her frustration and anger (like a soft part of her bedroom) that she can be put to when she's become violent not as a timeout but just to make it clear that you are distancing yourself for your own safety? There may be a million reasons why that is not the correct route but I just feel like that's the way I would go if I was sadly slipping through all the gaps of support like yourself.

Also, you are amazing for getting away and choosing your child in all this and keeping her safe. I can't even imagine how difficult all this contact visits must be knowing he is still getting to control things. You really have made the best decisions for your child and sound like an amazing mum facing a very challenging situation.

You can do this @EspressoDoubleShot

You and 3 year old Dd are living through the impact of violent X

Dd knows you left to keep both of you safe.
No doubt she is terrified of her violent father and confused why you have to allow contact. Definitely get CAFCAS batting for your poor traumatised 3 year old Dd as she should never be made to see this violent man

When 3 year old Dd is calm, play a little role play game with her teddies and teach her how you want her to respectfully calm herself down when she feels scared and angry
For example

Oh oh! Look! Poor little teddy looks scared and angry! Oh oh! How can we help her calm down and feel safe?

Watch me little teddy! Watch me jump the anger out!
“I’m so angry! I’m so angry! Jump! Jump! Jump the anger out!”
That’s right teddy! Keep Jumping! I’m so angry ! I’m so angry! Jump all the anger out little teddy.

Oh oh ! Oh nooooooooo! Look! Little teddy wants to hit and hurt! No No No! Stop now, little teddy! Stop! Stop! Stop!
We never ever hurt in our family! Jump little teddy! Jump the anger out instead!
‘I’m so angry! I’m so angry! Jump ! Jump! Jump! ‘

Then when your 3 year old Dd is angry, get her to jump on the spot and yell I’m so angry.

Show your beautiful 3 year old Dd the gorgeous Whoopi Goldberg