Should nurseries and primary schools move outside to halt the spread of Covid?

[Iwantalonglie]

Some individual nurseries have been massively increasing the amount of time their children spend outside to reduce the Covid risk to staff and children.

I'm curious as to what people think of this. Should more nurseries move outside entirely? It might be difficult for secondary schools, but should primary schools try to move some classes into the playground to allow more social distancing in the school building? Or would this be impractical for most nurseries/schools?

It seems a shame for children to go from being able to spend the majority of their time outdoors at age 3/4 to being stuck in a classroom at age 4/5.

But that's not what happens at all. No reception children are stuck in a classroom all day.

@Iwantalonglie

Nursery children are not the same as primary 7 children.

No, but reception and year 1 children have more in common with nursery children than P7s.

Well reception children still door outdoor based learning.

It seems a shame for children to go from being able to spend the majority of their time outdoors at age 3/4 to being stuck in a classroom at age 4/5

And back we go to the bit where you have no idea what actually goes on.

Ffs it's -3 here today I won't be spending £55 a day for my 1 year old to
Freeze to death outside.

Reception children have free flow and KS1 have mid morning and afternoon break in addition to lunchtime break. They are not stuck indoors all day

@AaronPurr. I agree, but many of those in reception and yr1 will already be spending a lot of time learning outdoors. Free flow environments and access to forest school are common place for those year groups.

That's a good point - maybe this just isn't an option in the schools round us due to space constraints. Our nearest school has a tiny concrete yard for reception separate from the main playground.

For those who are teachers/have young primary school children - do your schools offer free flow learning environments for reception/Y1? If so, where are they based? Urban/rural?

And back we go to the bit where you have no idea what actually goes on.

. I'm speaking based on my own experiences of the primary schools around here that we have been considering for our DC.

@Iwantalonglie

What is the point? Primary school is more than those 2 years.

The point is that an outdoor education might have more value for younger children, whereas older children need to spend more time indoors for the curriculum to be delivered effectively.

It seems a shame for children to go from being able to spend the majority of their time outdoors at age 3/4 to being stuck in a classroom at age 4/5.

Reception children aren’t stuck in classrooms.

Have you asked the schools what they do @Iwantalonglie?

I have moved some lessons to include time outside when possible- think questions on cards around the playground rather than on worksheets. But this relies on dry weather and in winter we can’t do this all day. My yr6 are currently still expecting to sit SATs in May and they need to be able to sit down and produce the written work in preparation for this.

Also, we have a large number of children who are not provided with clothing suitable for 20 minutes outside at playtime. I’ve given out all my spare stuff (DS’s outgrown fleeces, jumpers) for wearing in the classroom. As it hasn’t been returned, I have nothing left.

So while I appreciate the idea, it just isn’t practical for me.

Absolutely. I also think this is a great opportunity to overhaul the education system. I have family in Norway and on our multiple trips out there, you see this exact kind of outdoor schooling set up in similar weather, there is really no reason why the U.K. couldn’t do the same. Our primary school used to offer 6 weeks of forest school per class, which mine absolutely loved. This autumn term, dd6 kept being held back in from P.E to catch up on maths, needles to say I was furious, children need to be outside doing physical activities, this year more than ever. I’ve moved her now and thankfully her new school do multiple sessions of outdoor lessons each week.

@ineedaholidaynow. One of the schools near us has quite a big outdoor space (although mostly concrete except one grassy area where they grow vegetables). But apparently the reception kids are limited to their own tiny yard. I've talked to several parents at DC's nursery with kids there who are upset at how little time their kids spend outside. All the school will say is that the children are given appropriate opportunities for outdoor learning (and we haven't been able to visit due to Covid). The school does have a good Ofsted, though.

@Iwantalonglie

And back we go to the bit where you have no idea what actually goes on.

. I'm speaking based on my own experiences of the primary schools around here that we have been considering for our DC.

So of us are speaking from our experiences of actually working in schools, having children in schools and even professional qualifications.

Reception classes HAVE to have an outside area and children are expected to spend a significant amount of the day accessing learning through play. I’m speaking as someone who spent over 10 years working in various aspects of EYFS not someone who looked at a school.

I'm speaking based on my own experiences of the primary schools around here that we have been considering for our DC.

Like i said, no idea.

You said those primary schools 'offer a very narrow and pressured experience' but seem completely unable to understand that all primary schools across the U.K. are not the same. Your experience looking at schools in one area is not indicative of how all children are learning.

@SpaceRaiders

This autumn term, dd6 kept being held back in from P.E to catch up on maths, needles to say I was furious,

You were furious? Really?

Outdoor learning is fantastic, IF the children are appropriately clothed. It’s currently -2 where I am, by the time you add wind chill it’s at least -4. My toddler has warm weather clothes for being outside for an hour or two but I wouldn’t want him out all day. Plus he only has one set.

Like i said, no idea.

You said those primary schools 'offer a very narrow and pressured experience' but seem completely unable to understand that all primary schools across the U.K. are not the same. Your experience looking at schools in one area is not indicative of how all children are learning.

Maybe it is primarily an urban problem. But I've been very underwhelmed with the school options since we've started considering them. The schools just seem so cramped and concrete compared to a lot of European schools. They seem much better at promoting a healthy lifestyle amongst children then we are.

I’d love to see more outdoor learning going on but it would require a complete overhaul of the curriculum, expectations, SATS and OFSTED, not to mention retaining teachers.
It’s not going to happen by Monday.

Absolutely not.

I've been a Reception teacher in several different schools. In one inner-London school there was a tiny playground/covered walkway, but my class were out in their little area every day, even when rainy, frosty, snowy. The children could free-flow between indoors and outdoors and there were always topic-linked activities to do in both places.

Another school, suburban, large (for a primary school) green grounds, I joined the Reception team and they didn't use their outdoor space much and the children certainly didn't have free-flow. They even closed off the massive, new climbing frame / outdoor area when it was even a little bit because it was "dangerous". It made me so sad that the children had all that lovely grass and the trees outside but only really used it between the months of April-October. They never did outdoor learning, either, they were just taken out there to play.

Year 1 in most schools, I would say, don't have free-flow. They often go straight into "everyone doing English from 9-10, Maths 10-11" type teaching. I would really love for more schools to transition Year 1 pupils gradually, so half the year they have a similar environment to EYFS, then one whole-class lesson a day introduced, building up to perhaps 3/4 of a day as more "normal" KS1/KS2 type teaching. But if these kind of schools exist, I'm not aware of them! (Apart from outdoor learning-based schools, which are often private.)

I'd like to add that introducing more outdoor learning for children beyond about Year 1 is very, very difficult for non-private schools. Children have to cover areas of the curriculum, which is statutory for state schools (not academies) so you couldn't have children sat outside at desks in the same way you have them inside, regardless of what clothes they wear.

Like a pp said a little earlier - office workers are not taking their desks outside to work in the car park. It's very similar for Years 2 upwards; no space, too cold/wet to be sitting outside at a desk for any length of time.

My DS's nursery aim for 50/50 in a 3 hour session, all the kids bring coats and leave a set of wellies there. The nursery have there own waterproofs that they put over the kids coats on wet days. It works well, but it's nursery so lots of running round and climbing frame play to keep them warm. I can't see it being as fun sitting down to learn grammar in the cold.

The primary his nurserys attached to are quite lucky with space, they already had 3 playground areas, a field, and have been given use of some council tennis courts to give each year their own outside space. Even without the space pressure other schools have, they can only keep the kids outside for so long, maybe an hours lesson a day plus breaks / lunch / pe. That seems good, but still leaves them inside together for 3-4 hours.

I'd love to see my year four class carry their desks and chairs outside and pencil case iPads etc etc
And then actually do the planned lesson...
A lot struggle to concentrate in a room never mind a playground filled with other classes doing the same thing ...
No white boards for teacher to write on
Wind blowing
The rain arriving
The noise

For a start, it would require the entire curriculum to be rewritten.

The countries that do this successfully, do they have the wet and windy weather that we have? I get that Sweden is much colder but do they get 50mph winds and sideways rain that we've had in these parts recently? Much easier to dress against cold than against a storm.

Also the mindset of many families would need to change. Kids not sent to school in flimsy shoes and lightweight coats for instance. Many families can't afford anything else, and there are a few that insist that if the school requires the child to have a warm jumper that the school should damn we'll pay for it.

@Iwantalonglie

And back we go to the bit where you have no idea what actually goes on.

. I'm speaking based on my own experiences of the primary schools around here that we have been considering for our DC.

But have no actual experience with?