Should nurseries and primary schools move outside to halt the spread of Covid?

[Iwantalonglie]

Some individual nurseries have been massively increasing the amount of time their children spend outside to reduce the Covid risk to staff and children.

I'm curious as to what people think of this. Should more nurseries move outside entirely? It might be difficult for secondary schools, but should primary schools try to move some classes into the playground to allow more social distancing in the school building? Or would this be impractical for most nurseries/schools?

@TrashKitten10. Fair point... maybe effective outdoor provision will remain the preserve of a privileged minority.

When we lived in Canada, nurseries played outside in the snow unless it was -15. Time limited to 1hr when it was below -10. That was 2-4 year olds. No reason an 8yr old can’t learn outside for a couple of hours in 5C. DS4 was out in the park for three hours yesterday in the rain, and didn’t want to come home. He wasn’t cold or wet.

You need decent clothes, gloves and boots. They aren’t necessarily expensive - we got our snow clothes from H&M and secondhand, and rain clothes are even less expensive.

But yes, I’m sure it would be better for schools to provide it, as they do for Forest School trips, then they can be sure that everyone is warm and dry - it would be completely wrong for the MC kids in the class to be cosy and the poorer ones to be cold and wet.

@MeowMeowLikeACow

My DC's school does this. They have a lot of outdoor space though. Can't imagine it would be easy for many inner city schools.

We're in Cumbria so it's not warm. But they have lessons outdoors wherever possible, and did so before Covid as it's part of the school ethos. The kids love it. They do maths using natural resources found outdoors. They recreate historical scenes on the playing field and they have daily exercise sessions.

So it's doable, but only if you have the space I expect.

Yes this is how our school is set up too and many of the other primaries in the area are similar. It's currently -4 here and there's snow on the ground.

There is a covered outdoor space that is used all year round for outdoor learning, warm and waterproof clothing is required in the place of any formal uniform and the school has plenty of 'spares' for children that don't have adequate clothing or require a change of clothing during the day. I buy lots of cheap 'magic' gloves and send them in with several pairs each on rotation.

It's a rural area though so it's pretty standard for children to have outdoor stuff. Waterproofs and wellies don't have to be expensive and because it's something everyone round here uses they are pretty easy to get hold of secondhand on Facebook.

I think it helps that the teaching staff are very outdoor focused in their personal lives, most of the TAs and support staff are from farming backgrounds and the teachers are a mix of hiking/biking/rock climbing types so no one is being forced outside their comfort zones.

They children all come back home very rosy faced, full of what they have learnt (seems to involve a lot of mud!) and worn out and seem to really enjoy it so I think it can work in the right setting and done properly

Children would all need to be provided with the appropriate clothing - that would be hiking/ski gear type stuff. That would be expensive and many families wouldn't be able to afford it.

This wouldn't work for all children. SN kids or children with health conditions may not be able to stay in the cold all day.
And before anyone says is, you can have a health condition and not be vulnerable to covid or be shielding. The bar for shielding a child is extremely high.

For a healthy NT child with the right clothes it would probably be OK except nap time.

@Herdwick. Interesting post! I'd love it if primary schools round here were more like that. As it is, they seem to offer a very narrow and pressured experience, from what my friends with older kids say. And the SATS pressure is unreal for something that doesn't matter for the child themselves.

@BounceyBumblebee

Children would all need to be provided with the appropriate clothing - that would be hiking/ski gear type stuff. That would be expensive and many families wouldn't be able to afford it.

This wouldn't work for all children. SN kids or children with health conditions may not be able to stay in the cold all day.
And before anyone says is, you can have a health condition and not be vulnerable to covid or be shielding. The bar for shielding a child is extremely high.

For a healthy NT child with the right clothes it would probably be OK except nap time.

It doesn’t have to be expensive gear at all.

When my son was at an outdoor nursery he had vest, t-shirt, leggings/tights, jumper, trousers, puddle suit and wellies. None of it was expensive, it was all second hand, it certainly wasn’t hiking/ski type stuff. On very cold days I would pop an extra t-shirt under his jumper.

Children would all need to be provided with the appropriate clothing - that would be hiking/ski gear type stuff

Do you see the problem here?

Hiking and skiing gear is for very active hiking and skiing. The movement of the body helps generate heat which those clothes keep inside. Sitting at a desk isn't the same as hiking or skiing. The clothes would be hopeless. Better than a jacket from the supermarket, but not fit for sitting outside in the cold.

I'm on board with nurseries. DD is only one year but at her nursery there is a forest school for the preschoolers which is awesome. It's outdoor all year round although there is a yurt with a log burner for warmth. The children don't require naps anymore so probably works for them I guess.
I want DD to be at nursery because she is so sociable there and she's doing so well so if that means I dress her up extra warm and she is outdoors in a puddle suit for a big portion of the day I'm ok with that.
I don't know if it's practical for school children who are trying to learn though unless you are learning outdoor things

Sitting at a desk isn't the same as hiking or skiing. The clothes would be hopeless. Better than a jacket from the supermarket, but not fit for sitting outside in the cold.

The idea, I think, would be to deliver aspects of the curriculum in a way that didn't require children to be sitting at desks. But it sounds like that would be more practical for younger primary children than for older primary children and secondary school children.

It also sounds like some state primary schools already have great outdoor provision. Maybe we just need to reconsider the location of our next move.

Although I can see the benefit for early years it is really not that practical for older children.
A lot of preschool and reception stuff is learning through play or child initiated learning. I was fortunate that the nursery (and to a degree, reception) that my DC went to had a huge garden and great resources for outdoor playing/learning. However my DD spent most time sitting, drawing, colouring, learning to write or creating a picture or card to bring home. DS on the other hand spend nearly all his time outdoors, in the sand pit, at the water table etc - he never brought anything home - except muddy clothes! He has always been more outdoorsy and we used to say he was like a puppy that had to have a long time outside every day to stop him wrecking the house! Even this week (and the DC are tween /teen now) we noticed he is more restless, noisy and generally a bit crazy because he hasn't had his sports classes or been outside for a walk.
point being most early years settings have a variety of indoor and outdoor activities because not all DC are the same and learn in the same way.
Teen DD was really unhappy a few weeks before xmas when the weather was sub zero because she felt so cold and had got so chilled at school from sitting in cold classrooms and sitting outside in -1 degrees at lunchtime. (she wears a thermal vest under school uniform and 3 pairs of socks, and her coat had to be chosen on not only warmth but not too bulky so still possible to write properly)
DS on the other hand rarely wears his coat, refuses to wear a vest (although he did wear skins under his trousers) but is rarely cold because he runs about and plays football at lunchtime.(and generally doesn't feel the cold)

The idea, I think, would be to deliver aspects of the curriculum in a way that didn't require children to be sitting at desks

Aspects isn't enough. Older D.C. in primary school need all of the curriculum, not aspects of it. There is not a chance this can be delivered without them sitting down.

most early years settings have a variety of indoor and outdoor activities because not all DC are the same and learn in the same way.

Why do nursery settings recognise this and yet primary schools don't? Instead, they expect young pupils to engage in sedentary activities for long periods, including those who are naturally kinesthetic learners.

@yankeedoodledandee. But why not a mixture for older primary school pupils? Say 50/50 indoors/outdoors.

Why do nursery settings recognise this and yet primary schools don't? Instead, they expect young pupils to engage in sedentary activities for long periods, including those who are naturally kinesthetic learners.

You are not seriously asking this?

Surely you can recognise the developmental differences and even end goal?

I thought learning style theories had been debunked

But why not a mixture for older primary school pupils? Say 50/50 indoors/outdoors.

Because 50% of the curriculum covered. Particularly in the upper years, isn't achievable by running about outside.

This may be something you want to explore for your own D.C. but for mine and the majority of others following the curriculum in order to progress is fine.

Don't use covid as an excuse for being unhappy with how your school teaches.

In winter???

@ineedaholidaynow

I thought learning style theories had been debunked

Yeah I just picked up on that, it has as well, you’re right.

Don't use covid as an excuse for being unhappy with how your school teaches.

No idea what you mean? My DC aren't even at school yet.

@LadyCatStark

It’s freezing out there! You’d have children crying by the time you’d finished the register!

They manage in forest schools in Scandinavian countries.

DD is a teacher in a school nursery class but they are outside less than usual as other classes are using the outside area to have more socially distant playtime and also staggering the times.

Im sure they do manage in Scandanavian countries. The entire system is set up for harsh winters. This country isnt.

Last month we (primary school in a deprived area) had children turning up in shorts and t-shirt on PE days. Others came to school either with a summer jacket or no coat at all. On any given day there would be 5 or 6 children in my classroom without a jumper or cardigan on. Girls often came to school wearing skirts and pinafores with ankle socks.

We have so many families at breaking point that the school runs its own food bank to try to ensure that they at least have enough to eat. We've also started offering breakfast to every child because so many were coming to school hungry. Parents are in tears in the mornings because they can't cope.

I doubt very much that we're the only school in this position. Our budget is so stretched that we can barely cover the cost of cleaning supplies, let alone enough spare warm and waterproof clothing for every child to be able to spend their days outside.

@Iwantalonglie

most early years settings have a variety of indoor and outdoor activities because not all DC are the same and learn in the same way.

Why do nursery settings recognise this and yet primary schools don't? Instead, they expect young pupils to engage in sedentary activities for long periods, including those who are naturally kinesthetic learners.

My DS is year 6, his favourite day of the year is sports day, he loves being outside. However I'd really struggle to see how majority of his work (obviously home learning this year has given me - and most parents - moreinsight into their lessons) could be acheived outside if not in more formal ways. If I think about maths they could have done their lessons on calculating the area of a shape outside, and probably volume...but unsure about adding, subtracting and multiplying fractions. See also grammar, comprehension, writing biographies. Its one thing to learn to write letters with a stick or mud/paint but these kids are a year away from high school, producing large chunks of writing which will be assessed not only for sentence and paragraph structure but also for handwriting.

You are not seriously asking this?

Surely you can recognise the developmental differences and even end goal?

Sorry if I'm being obtuse but I don't understand your point. Why do we recognise that children aged 3 have different learning styles (and some prefer to be outside) but we don't recognise that this also applies to children aged 4 who are expected to learn in the same way.

You seem really upset about something @yankeedoodledandee. Sorry if I've hit a nerve. All I'm really doing is asking (i) whether children spending more time learning outside could help prevent Covid tranmission, and (ii) (which this thread has naturally evolved into) whether more outdoor learning would be a good thing in general. This is something about which people are allowed to have different views - do you want me to apologise for having a different view from you?