Should nurseries and primary schools move outside to halt the spread of Covid?

[Iwantalonglie]

Some individual nurseries have been massively increasing the amount of time their children spend outside to reduce the Covid risk to staff and children.

I'm curious as to what people think of this. Should more nurseries move outside entirely? It might be difficult for secondary schools, but should primary schools try to move some classes into the playground to allow more social distancing in the school building? Or would this be impractical for most nurseries/schools?

My daughter is is 4 and attends an outdoor preschool (forest school). They haven't had children "crying because its cold". If they're appropriately dressed and being active, they would be fine.
However, her school is set up for this. Whereas the logistics of a normal schools or nursery moving outdoors would be quite difficult. Enough space for 200+ kids in an urban school playground, for a start.

@Iwantalonglie
There also a "mindset" issue from teachers - that important learning happens in an indoor classroom.
Ah, wait, I see this is turning into another teacher bashing thread by a parent who thinks they’ve had a good idea. Have a dear

Yes, it's going to be a lot easier for suburban and rural schools with more space. Though the primaries round us have fair-sized concrete playgrounds - you could definitely teach 3-4 classes outside in them

We are a rural school. Most village primaries are the ones housed in old Victorian buildings.

However, given the daily tears last term about the cold - and I teach in a loft classroom with only one Velux to open - it’s a no go anyway. Well, not without major investment in tech, premises and training.

@Redbirds
OP primary teachers don’t make up random lessons on the day there is a curriculum to follow and objectives to be achieved. I’m sure more outdoor education is a good thing for nurseries but not practical for older pupils. I really despair at times at the lack of understanding of the fact that teachers carefully prepare according to pupil need not make up random crap based around the weather!
^^ This exactly! I teach 10/11 year olds, following a strict set curriculum, that is not conducive to being outside and trying to make the lesson “fit” that environment

Ah, wait, I see this is turning into another teacher bashing thread by a parent who thinks they’ve had a good idea.

Sorry, I should have said "mindset" issue from parents and teachers. It's not just confined to teachers. Many many people in this country think it's sensible for very young children to be inactive and sat at desks for long periods of time.

This is not intended to be a teacher-bashing thread.

But we do need to confront the fact that less than 50% of primary age children get their recommended 30 minutes of physical activity at school a day.

But we do need to confront the fact that less than 50% of primary age children get their recommended 30 minutes of physical activity at school a day.

Yes, but this is not the fault of teachers, the fault lies in various areas, parents who choose not to dress their child appropriately, parents who don’t value physical health, the pressure schools are under to reach a certain level of attainment, local authorities selling school property, inadequate funding for sports equipment and appropriately qualified sports/fitness staff in primary schools.

Dc's city centre school is very lucky with the interesting space they have. We already have outdoor classrooms, a large walled garden, chickens and greenhouses plus access to the public park we even had a specialist outdoor learning teacher til last year, we are constantly reminded to send dc in suitable clothing as they will go outside regardless of the weather and money isn't an issue for the majority of parents, however with a school roll of over 600 and 3 or 4 classes per year group it's still impossible to keep bubbles separate and get much widespread use of the space. The school I work in up the road don't let the dc out in even the lightest drizzle, the playground although a good size in comparison to the size of the school is Astro turf or concrete with no shelter and offers little opportunity for quality outdoor learning, the teaching and support staff aren't trained in it. The dc aren't used to being outside and don't have appropriate clothing. The parents could not afford to buy it. You can't just re write an outdoor learning based curriculum in a few days and train the staff. I see your thinking behind it but can't imagine it's in any way practical for about 99% of settings

Yes, I was about to ask when they were supposed to find the time to rewrite all their lesson plans for outside learning.

And I don't see much benefit for 9/10/11 year olds writing in mud etc..

It might be difficult for secondary schools

How on earth would this work for say GCSE students? Let's take a GCSE Chemistry lesson fo rexample. It sounds like you have experience of very young children who run around all day. In no way is this comparable with key exam years.

During the original lockdown, when only keyworker and vulnerable children were in school, ad the curriculum was suspended, this is how my local school worked.
They are lucky that each classroom has a firedoor and coned off a strip of field or playground for each class where they did most of their activities.
But
a) the curriculum was suspended - most of the KS2 curriculum does not lend itself to working outside in winter. Sustained concentration on writing or solving mathematical problems requires being more
Require

@middleager. That's why I said it might be difficult for secondary schools. I have no experience in that area so I don't know whether outdoor lessons would offer any value.

Given other countries don't start formal education until 6/7, I don't see why in principle we couldn't offer a primarily outdoor-based education for children up to age 7.

The practicalities are a different matter of course. But "That's a good idea but we don't have the resources" is a different argument than "That's a terrible idea and children belong inside in the classroom".

But we do need to confront the fact that less than 50% of primary age children get their recommended 30 minutes of physical activity at school a day

How is this the fault of the teachers? They have objectives to meet. This means they need to teach and constantly quantify their learning for 30 kids, all day, 5 days a week. Any outside play is great but it's lower down the list.

Parents need to take responsibility for their kids being active. Walk to school/visit the swings on the way home/go for a walk after dinner/long day out on foot at the weekend to make up for lack of activity in the week.

OP why not try doing all your kids homework outside with them from now on. Then come back and tell us if you still think teaching outside is a good idea.

Given other countries don't start formal education until 6/7, I don't see why in principle we couldn't offer a primarily outdoor-based education for children up to age 7.

My partner is from one of those countries, for some reason people seem to think children in countries that start compulsory schooling later learn to read, write, add etc later. They don’t, his compulsory schooling started at 7, he started to learn to read, write etc at pre-school when he was three and his academic schooling carried on at kindy.

@SimonJT. I completely agree it's not the fault of the teachers. It's a natural consequence of all the factors you've listed that kids are unhealthy and don't get sufficient exercise.

But simply because an undesirable consequence (unhealthy children) is no one's fault doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a conversation about ways to address it.

From a personal pov, I find myself deeply concerned about the sedentary nature of primary education. That doesn't mean I blame the teachers... they do their best for the kids within the constraints of the system.

It's the system which I'm criticising, not the teachers.

To be honest, if I were building a new primary school, OP, I'd absolutely want to incorporate many of your ideas. Pandemic planning should be something we take forward into the future; we should be learning from this.

& yes, I completely agree that much more outdoor time would be brilliant for young children's health & development.

But it's not terrifically practical now, given the state of underfunded, disintegrating school buildings on cramped sites, & it's unlikely to be practical going forwards without significant per capita investment.

Outdoor forest school type stuff has its place but it's not going to get year 6 through their SATS or prepare them for secondary, is it? I'd be thoroughly unimpressed and worried if my 11 year old was going to school to make dens and play with the mud kitchen all day.

But simply because an undesirable consequence (unhealthy children) is no one's fault doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a conversation about ways to address it.

It is someones fault, it is the fault of the childs parents/carers.

@doctorhamster. Why would that concern you? If the teachers organised the making dens and playing in the mud kitchen so it covered the learning objectives for the day?

My DC's school does this. They have a lot of outdoor space though. Can't imagine it would be easy for many inner city schools.

We're in Cumbria so it's not warm. But they have lessons outdoors wherever possible, and did so before Covid as it's part of the school ethos. The kids love it. They do maths using natural resources found outdoors. They recreate historical scenes on the playing field and they have daily exercise sessions.

So it's doable, but only if you have the space I expect.

@SimonJT. Not entirely. .. schools are meant to ensure children have 30 mins physical activity at school and parents 30 mins out of school (so an hour minimum each day). Less than half of schools meet that 30 minute target. That's not on the parents.

@CorvusPurpureus. I agree it's probably not practical for a lot of schools.

But the first question is "Do we think it is a good idea?"

The second question is "Can we make it happen?"

It is currently -3 here and forecast to be the same all week. In theory outside may just about work for a play based lower primary class but not an older primary class. Writing in the mud won’t really help most P6 or P7s to achieve much of a standard. Outdoors will work for a lot of the Maths curriculum but is it the best setting for Numeracy?
I teach outside for part of most days. Many parents are unhappy that their child is out when it’s cold. Many children just do not have appropriate clothes for rain and cold. What happens when they don’t have boots? They don’t have a change of clothes?

[quote Iwantalonglie]@doctorhamster. Why would that concern you? If the teachers organised the making dens and playing in the mud kitchen so it covered the learning objectives for the day?[/quote]
You writing to your MP and campaigning for changes to the curriculum is the only possible way this is going to happen.

Teachers are not involved in this and absolutely have no sway with policy makers to change things. At present, passing phonics screening, times table tests and SATs is what our education ‘experts’ value so that’s what they measure.

Another barrier... Noise. My kids school is next to the East Coast Mainline. Having to stop an explanation on volcanos while the 11.02 to Edinburgh passes...

Getting the kids outdoors at break/lunchtime should be encouraged, and outdoor sessions as appropriate. But all day could be impractical.

It takes a lot of effort to persuade parents to send even basic showerproof coats.

Plenty of children don't have properly warm coats/gloves/boots so probably not practical.