Should nurseries and primary schools move outside to halt the spread of Covid?

[Iwantalonglie]

Some individual nurseries have been massively increasing the amount of time their children spend outside to reduce the Covid risk to staff and children.

I'm curious as to what people think of this. Should more nurseries move outside entirely? It might be difficult for secondary schools, but should primary schools try to move some classes into the playground to allow more social distancing in the school building? Or would this be impractical for most nurseries/schools?

But we do need to confront the fact that less than 50% of primary age children get their recommended 30 minutes of physical activity at school a day.

At my school key stage 1 have outdoor play for 15. Imputes every morning and afternoon, plus around 45 minutes each lunchtime. In addition they have 2-3 PE slots a week of 30-60 minutes, plus we do 'daily mile' type exercise each day.

I'm at a city Victorian infant school. We have 9 classes. The three reception classes have access to an outdoor area most of the time - the children choose. Key stage 1 could share the playground in a rota system, though as it's a concrete one on a slope it may be limited to what it was used for at times.

We'd need funding to provide suitable clothing for many of our children who simply wouldn't have the right attire and who's parents couldn't afford to provide them. Not just for cold weather but for wet weather - England can be very rainy, plus it's currently -1 today so we need proper outdoor clothes for the day, plus spares.

For me personally, as teaching staff - I'd struggle. I am not sure I could do it as my arthritis is definitely negatively affected by the cold and/or damp. Simply wrapping up warm won't help that. If it was compulsory all the time I'd probably have to leave my job.

@Iwantalonglie

Would anyone choose a school based on this?

So choose a wholly outdoor nursery?

Or choose a primary school where 50% of the lessons are outdoors?

My son went to an entirely outdoor nursery, the only indoor space was the toilet and the food prep area.

I would be very happy for my son to attend outdoor primary for eyfs and ks1, however unless there are significant changes in both the national curriculum and school funding it isn’t feasible.

@Iwantalonglie we could just move everyone outside...doctors, offices, parliament. Make it fair for all! I mean, it’s not like it’s cold or anything! I’ll take the laptop and pull the smartboard off the wall. Our books are made to withstand wind and rain so we’ll be fine!

@MillieEpple Yes definitely lucky to be able to have staffing levels for splitting the class in half, so half can be outside at one time. I've not worked at a primary school in the last 12 years that have had 1 TA per class, and definitely not at the moment with the rate of staff having to isolate or off sick.

I have circulation issues, not because I'm old I've always had them and my childhood was blighted by chilblains. If my hands get cold they are so painful I could cry. If I had to be outside all day in this weather I would definitely need special clothes and layers of gloves. I'd be so bundled up I don't think I could do much. I'm sure very little ones would be able to run around but not sure it would be practical for the work older ones would do.

@Abraxan. Thank you... very interesting post on the difficulties schools/ teachers may face.

Part of the reason I'm asking is Covid, but also because we may have the chance to send our DC to a fully outdoors (private) primary in a few years' time.

This is a mental idea. I walked to the local shop the other day that is 10 minutes away and I wore rain gear and I got soaked, my face actually hurt from the wind and rain! I would never agree to a child sitting in that for up to 8 hours. Today here we've had snow, frost and the roads and paths are icy. Now it's starting to rain heavy and it's so windy that the boxes from Christmas have blown over the wall.

In my kids secondary schools they sit with windows open, they come home freezing every day, it's so cold that not only are they allowed to wear coats they are now allowed a blanket for their legs.

Unless you live in a country that has decent weather this is a ridiculous idea, if you're going to start putting in overhead covers etc then you might as well be inside.

Just do what they have done here in Ireland, mandate masks all day in schools. While it hasn't ruled out the spread, it has definitely slowed it and we don't have as high a transmission rate as the UK.

but also because we may have the chance to send our DC to a fully outdoors (private) primary in a few years' time.

Which school?

I find it interesting the people citing that they do this is Denmark/Norway/Sweden/other scandi countries yet we also always get told how those countries don’t start school until they are 7.

@Iwantalonglie

I agree conventional lessons wouldn't work outside - so it might make sense to have a mix of indoor/outdoor lessons.

Why is cold necessarily a barrier? If children are dressed warmly and properly and the lesson plan structured so they keep moving?

I only say this for really special cases but after reading ”why is cold necessarily a barrier?” I can only politely ask that you back away from your laptop/iPad/phone and stay off the internet for the rest of the day.

Suitable outside space would be an issue at my DC’s primary school.

The school has some tarmac playgrounds - you could probably fit all the pupils on them at once, but if you wanted to avoid different year groups getting in each other’s space, they’d all have to be sitting / standing still. And it’s too cold for that in winter, even if everyone could afford to buy suitable warm winter clothes and was wearing them.

And rain is also a potential issue. I’m not sure about the practicalities of setting up canopies.

I do agree that increasing the amount of time pupils spend outside right now sounds sensible in terms of reducing Covid risk - where it can be made to work with the demands of the national curriculum, that is - but it doesn’t sound practical to have pupils spend most of the school day outside, especially in the older year groups.

@StanfordPines

I find it interesting the people citing that they do this is Denmark/Norway/Sweden/other scandi countries yet we also always get told how those countries don’t start school until they are 7.

That doesn’t mean children don’t attend nursery, pre-school or kindy. Compulsory schooling doesn’t start until 5 in England, but outdoor nursery very much still exists.

@StanfordPines children may start formal education at 7 in those countries but many children will be in some form of nursery education for a number of years before that. I think about 80% of Finnish parents work so their children need to go somewhere!

@AaronPurr. Liberty Woodland school. We may be moving into the area in a couple of years and have put DC on waiting list.

[quote Iwantalonglie]@AaronPurr. Liberty Woodland school. We may be moving into the area in a couple of years and have put DC on waiting list.[/quote]
Why would you intentionally send your child to an inadequate school?

From their inadequate ofsted

 The books that pupils read are not always well matched to their phonics knowledge. This affects some pupils’ reading fluency. Leaders must ensure that this area is addressed so that the teaching of early reading is more effective and enables all pupils to become fluent and confident readers.
 Leaders have not ensured that pupils get enough opportunities to practise and apply their mathematical knowledge and skills. Pupils find it hard to remember the work they have done previously. Leaders must make sure that teachers provide pupils with opportunities to develop their problem-solving and reasoning skills.
 Leaders have not ensured that pupils gain sufficient knowledge, understanding and skills in subjects that are taught through projects, such as geography. This means that pupils are held back from learning more and remembering more. Leaders must make sure that the subjects covered and taught through projects provide pupils with learning experiences that deepen their understanding in the respective subjects.
How can I feed

Why would you intentionally send your child to an inadequate school?

Indeed. 27 pupils and 16 staff members, but they seem to fail in basic educational areas.

Terrible idea. Most children would hate it. And, my DD's primary school has no way near enough outside space! They each have a little strip of playground per class, and that's it.

@SimonJT. The school only opened a year ago... Teething issues are not necessarily unexpected. It's only one option we're considering for DC but an intriguing one. Personally, I just don't think that children are ready for the classroom at age 4 so it's interesting to see what alternatives are available.

[quote Iwantalonglie]@SimonJT. The school only opened a year ago... Teething issues are not necessarily unexpected. It's only one option we're considering for DC but an intriguing one. Personally, I just don't think that children are ready for the classroom at age 4 so it's interesting to see what alternatives are available.[/quote]
At their six month inspection children who are of an age to have previously attended school before moving to this school are unable to recall basic maths. So not only has little progress been made, they have lost previously taught skills. It isn’t difficult for an adult to provide reading materials that are appropriate for an individual child, that isn’t a teething problem, thats being incompetent.

I’m not at all opposed to outdoor schooling. I am however opposed to inadequate schooling.

Our kids were cold enough in class with the windows open in December - before the temp regularly dropped below zero each night, never mind sitting outside

It's all very well saying they would need to be wrapped up but even with layers of clothing in, which is a barrier to learning, they would still be fucking freezing sitting outside for hours at a time. How on earth would they write with thick gloves on for a start?

I havent read the whole thread, but honestly OP, I think this is a totally impractical suggestion.

Do you have children? Any experience of childcare?

As an EYFS teacher I'm happy spending hours outside in the cold and can dress appropriately. Many of the children in the (deprived) schools I have taught in however would be nowhere near adequately dressed for a mainly outdoor education. Neither parents nor schools can afford to kit children out in high quality outdoor clothing. Being outside in freezing temperatures all day requires a lot more than a coat from Asda and a pair of wellies. Outdoor nurseries are fab, but cater to a very different demographic to a lot of schools. Therefore it's a no from me :)

I’m not at all opposed to outdoor schooling. I am however opposed to inadequate schooling.

Well said. It's all very well wanting more time outdoors and many schools could do more in this area, but it shouldn't come at the detriment of learning. A school with an established Forest school provision would offer many of the same opportunties as the school you're considering, but would also provide a balanced and well rounded curriculum as well.

I think it will be very interesting to see how it develops. If they can address the issues which have been identified, I would definitely consider it for my DC. The health benefits alone of being outdoors so much (including mental health) would make it worth thinking about. Especially compared to our local concrete jungle primary schools which drill children to the test.