Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Parenting

For free parenting resources please check out the Early Years Alliance's Family Corner.

Nice White Parents

208 replies

Sugarintheplum · 03/09/2020 13:31

This podcast has been fascinating. Has anyone else been listening?

I've long seen that reflected in my life / kids lives. But what I am still lacking is an understanding of the thought process these parents go through.

For example, I used to send my children to a very diverse tap / ballet /drama class where I lived previously. It was very mixed ethnically. Lovely lovely place. Where I live now the classes are more expensive (the area is still very diverse), and the kids who attend these classes are more than likely white and middle class. I yearn for other kids who look like my kids to join for a myriad of reasons. There IS a ballet school in this part of town that has the stated mission to improve representation of ethnic minorities in ballet through the adult core to the school for children. There is a waiting list BUT STILL white parents send there kids there. This means ethnic minority children are waiting while white children take up the place. I see that and honestly wonder what the parents are thinking. And this is just a tiny example, but it happens in other aspects of life, too.

It needs to be explained to me because I'm truly lost!

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 04/09/2020 10:04

TL:DR is that people who are used to all doors being open to them have to be told 'no, not you' very clearly indeed, if they are to understand 'no'. Had you said that I wouldn't have cringed for you! It would have been pretty accurate.

But you said I think you have to treat 'the privileged' in whatever case, as being a bit thick. State the rules clearly. Really spell things out for us, slooowly. which is entirely different! So I did cringe, was embarrased for you!

lottiegarbanzo · 04/09/2020 10:11

Or you could have taken the time to read my whole post CuriousaboutSamphire and understand its point, instead of using your time to select and pick at one line - which followed from the others.

I disagree that it's a different point. It is the same point, expressed in different words. 'Very clearly indeed ' = 'treat as if a bit thick'.

Cringe away, if that's what you enjoy. I still disagree with you.

DidoAtTheLido · 04/09/2020 10:21

@Sugarintheplum .

I understand your frustration. I think the issue could be addressed a bit by the school looking closely at their market and setting up booking and waiting list systems accordingly.

When the National Theatre produced Fela! and wanted to ensure access for an audience with a string interest, they completely changed their marketing and sales model. Usually they sell the majority of tickets to their Priority Booking mailing list. And guess who is in that? For this they reserved a majority tickets for much later booking, and changed their publicity and marketing methods and distribution.

‘First Come First Served’ depends on who sees it first and bold and plans ahead.

Rather than expecting white people to step aside (arguably patronising and casting black and brown people as victims), make sure that communities generally easier to leave out are at the forefront of the publicity and booking. Advertise first in the places that lots of Black people already gather.

It is also legal under the equalities act to provide targeted classes for under represented groups, so it could be run and advertised as a specific project.

(Our family are black / brown)

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Oliversmumsarmy · 04/09/2020 11:20

What would happen to the school if all the white parents pulled their children out of the classes.

Whilst you say there are BAME children “languishing” on the waiting list. Would there be enough to cover the spaces available.

I ask as this is what happened to a private school that I looked at for dd in our area.

It had over a few years of new management weeded out anyone who didn’t fit with their narrow ethos
The school didn’t survive.

Byallmeans · 04/09/2020 11:53

@turnitonagain

I wanted to talk about the podcast!

I struggle with a lot of the issues it raises. We are a mixed family (one black parent one white) in a well off but somewhat diverse area. Many wealthy families (mainly white) choose private, which we could afford. The local schools as a result are higher % BAME than the area because of those who go private.

My DCs are visibly non white. Do I put them in the diverse school where they’ll be part of a community where they don’t stick out as minorities, even if the results aren’t as good? Or do we choose private or move to an area with better schools, which tend to be whiter areas?

Honestly I don’t know. It feels like for BAME families the choices are harder because we know minority children having a private school background can help them in how they’re viewed by society. Which is horrible. But true.

I supppse it’s the demographic of where you live.

When we lived quiet rurally, our first independent was mostly white with very very few ethnic minorities.

We moved area and our dd now go to an all girls prep which is very diverse and in a busy town. In dd class alone white girls are the minority and I’d say just by doing the school run I can see it’s probably a trend through out the school.

Bryyy · 04/09/2020 12:02

I'm BAME my kids are BAME and we all look white (me the least but still). I think of they want BAME kids to go to said school they should reach out to them

HathorX · 04/09/2020 12:09

I think you are maybe attributing too much intent to these white middle class mums.

Speaking as a white middle class mum, who knows a lot of white middle class mums (and is is most likely to be mums who are registering their girls in ballet, let's face it) I expect their approach is:

"Oh that's a good ballet school and it is nearby. I'm going to put little Emily's name down. But these lists are always long. I'm going to put her name down at [alternative ballet school] too. Oh and also this gym class here... and this tap class here... oooh a drama group, yessssss!!!!...and maybe also piano. It's a bit early, but an instrument is desirable. And Brownies.... oh no, silly me, I already signed her up for Brownies at birth."

I think there definitely is some blindness about the need to allow BAME communities to carve out their own spaces, because probably most white middle class families WANT to mix with BAME families, and simply don't see it as a problem to sign up to a list. Which, as you say, is permitted by the ballet school.

I remember being accused of racism by a BAME colleague at a new job when I was 21, because I could not name "enough" BAME people who were my friends, to satisfy her. She said, my thinly diverse social circle demonstrated I was racist. I took it to heart. I had grown up in a white community where I had not actually met many BAME people (my second best friend at primary school was Asian, but at secondary there was not a single BAME student in my class). When i began work in central London of course I encountered a more diverse community and found more BAME friends naturally, but it struck me - should my mum have sought out a more diverse group of friends for me outside school? Our neighbours were Asian (the only Asians in the street back then) and we were friends, attended each others family weddings, shared meals, usual neighbourly stuff. But in the back of my mind, this social pressure to integrate has been there throughout my life, not just white people trying to centre themselves but if we ALL actively seek out opportunities to meet BAME people, because we are the majority, it's gonna look like an appropriation, an invasion, a white-washing of legitimate BAME opportunities.

Another example. A friend of mine had been unable to conceive so went through the hoops to adopt. One form required her to draw a diagram showing her social circles - from immediate family, to close friends, moving out to more distant acquaintance. The entire purpose of the diagram was to map the proportion of her social contacts who were of a different ethnic background to her. She was terrified she might "fail" the diversity test as it wasnt clear what the expected outcome was, but the intent was clear: please demonstrate you are not a racist by stating how diverse your social life is.

I'm absolutely NOT saying that these BAME clubs aren't being flooded by white people, but I do not think it is done with malign intent. There have been mixed messages for decades from society about these issues.

Now let's address ballet. It is a hot spot because it is a VERY well known issue in particular in ballet, that certain physiques and looks are preferred. One issue is, you will never see an overweight prima ballerina. Another is, you will never see a very muscular female ballerina. You never see disabled ballerinas. And so on. Similarly it has been rare to see black ballerinas.

You are comparing BAME with groups for LGBTQ or disabilities. Honestly I have never seen a group for disabled ballet dancers advertised, nor one for LGBTQ ballet dancers. And I've never really thought about this before. And I agree, I wouldn't send my DD to a ballet group for disabled or LGBTQ dancers. In the first instance I would assume she would be out of place at a club specifically for disabled children. And I wouldn't send her to an LGBTQ dance club because I would assume the club has some special interest focus not relevant to my DD (well, not yet, she is only 10 so who knows what the future holds).

I am starting to agree we need carved out spaces so children from different backgrounds and with different minority challenges can flourish. I wouldn't disagree with that. But I do think it is important to raise awareness without simply bashing white people in the way you are doing. It isnt helpful because you are creating more tension as white people will say, "look I just signed up on a list, I wasn't trying to offend or intimidate or crowd anyone, no one told me I shouldn't sign up, I just want my child to enjoy some activities in a racially mixed context because there arent many white people in our neighbourhood."

Does any of this make sense? Very hard to explain.

PapaPoule · 04/09/2020 12:18

@turnitonagain

I wanted to talk about the podcast!

I struggle with a lot of the issues it raises. We are a mixed family (one black parent one white) in a well off but somewhat diverse area. Many wealthy families (mainly white) choose private, which we could afford. The local schools as a result are higher % BAME than the area because of those who go private.

My DCs are visibly non white. Do I put them in the diverse school where they’ll be part of a community where they don’t stick out as minorities, even if the results aren’t as good? Or do we choose private or move to an area with better schools, which tend to be whiter areas?

Honestly I don’t know. It feels like for BAME families the choices are harder because we know minority children having a private school background can help them in how they’re viewed by society. Which is horrible. But true.

If you can afford the private school, and your kids want it, put them in the private school. They won't be the first BAME kids in history to go to private school. They won't be the first BAME kids in the history of that school. They likely won't be the only BAME kids in their class.

Prioritise their education over perpetuating the idea that it is better for people to be surrounded by as many people who look like them as possible.

Sugarintheplum · 04/09/2020 15:58

@PapaPoule
Which school is quite complex. I've got black friends who went to Eton who are scarred. I've got black friends who went to the local comp, and are very grounded, doing well and going for partnership in magic circle law firms. BAME kids can be miseducated at the wrong school (as can any child). It's not simple at all.

@CuriousaboutSamphire Are you saying I should not express my emotions? I'm not sure why I would do that. If it is so that you feel better, I'll respectfully decline and continue to be connected to all parts of myself. But thanks for the recommendation.

@Incrediblytired
I had a REALLY good day yesterday, absolutely no 'huffiness' or anything else. But thank you for your preliminary psychological formulation, I'll bear it in mind that maybe I came across that way to some. I'll not address your undermining of my ability to think critically and instead point to your obvious misinterpretation of what I am saying. Have I said at any point that children of different backgrounds should not mix? No, i haven't. If you do find that I have said that anywhere, please let me know. Have I said that BAME people might at times want a little reprieve from the racist gaze, the words, the sentiments, the messaging and so on? Yes, I have and I stand by that. Mine is not a rare perspective. Perhaps your Indian best mate says otherwise. That could be because she truly feels that way (of course that could be true as all BAME aren't the same), it could be because she just doesn't want talk about it with a white person. I have white friends I never talk race to. I still love them and our kids still play together. Unfortunately these issues do affect our close relationships. I would direct you to the Unsaid Stories episode 4 for a great portrayal of that.

It is interesting that when I say that I don't feel this is a safe space to talk about other related issues, I'm told it IS a safe space. I have already said it does not feel so to me - why can that basic assertion not be respected by some? I feel I need to point out that THE VERY DENIAL OF MY EXPERIENCE ON HERE IS WHY IT DOES NOT FEEL A SAFE SPACE FOR ME. I'm not being huffy (I smell a little sexism in that comment) or over-emotional (definite whiff of sexism there), I'm being honest and assertive. It doesn't feel safe to me so I won't expand on my thoughts on those other issues any further.

I'd disagree that all parents are trying to do the best for their children regardless of how it impacts other children. If I see a starving child I'll share my child's dinner with that child. I would even possibly give that child my child's entire meal. My kids have never gone a day without food in their lives. One or two here or there won't hurt, in fact it would probably do them good. I don't go to bed at night happy that my child's belly is full when I know another is starving. I think and behave more collectively than that.

It's really intriguing that I've been asked a few times where I am in the world. I'm right here in the UK on a high street near you! Always been here, from birth to this message. This really isn't stuff that goes on mostly elsewhere. It's definitely undeniably here.

Oh, about swimming. The muscle comment was racist, that was my point.

Thanks to all who have contributed.

OP posts:
PapaPoule · 04/09/2020 16:25

Which school is quite complex. I've got black friends who went to Eton who are scarred. I've got black friends who went to the local comp, and are very grounded, doing well and going for partnership in magic circle law firms. BAME kids can be miseducated at the wrong school (as can any child). It's not simple at all

Quite true, choosing schools for children is a fraught undertaking for parents, regardless of their skin tone. But skin colour of the others in the cohort shouldn't be a factor, certainly if the goal is racial harmony. Because all the parent has done there is looked at the skin colour of the children and made assumptions about them.

I'd disagree that all parents are trying to do the best for their children regardless of how it impacts other children. If I see a starving child I'll share my child's dinner with that child

Jesus, extreme much ? It's ballet for the 99.999% of kids who won't go on to become prima ballerinas, but whose parents want them out of the house, getting some exercise, and the chance to show off their progeny a bit. Given the option "my kid gets this spot and opportunity" or "some other kid gets the spot and opportunity I want for my kid", the overwhelming majority of parents will go for the former. Just as if faced with a starving child, the overwhelming majority of parents whose kids were not starving would give food to the starving kid (more likely giving up their own dinner than their child's though I'd bet).

Sugarintheplum · 04/09/2020 18:00

@PapaPoule

You got the point, though, so i'll take that as a little achievement for me.

You said: But skin colour of the others in the cohort shouldn't be a factor, certainly if the goal is racial harmony.

Taking into account some of the parent's comments on here, it clearly often is. It's really not for you, someone who has not walked in their shoes, to tell them what 'should' be a concern. The mere fact that recently some schools have issued apologies to students is testament to the fact that prejudice and discrimination is real and its impact can be real and long-lasting. Again, don't take it from me: www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/23/nigerian-ex-eton-pupil-says-he-will-return-to-accept-racism-apology And just in case you prefer another news source: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8450021/Eton-apologises-Nigerian-author-banned-going-book-detailed-appalling-racism.html

OP posts:
PapaPoule · 04/09/2020 18:44

Those links detail racism back in the 60s and 70s. It's hardly a portrait of contemporary British education.

People can be concerned about whatever they want. But, per Gandhi, "be the change you want to see in the world", boiling down to "don't want your skin colour held against you ? Don't hold skin colour against anybody else." You can't control other people's behaviour, but you can control your own to make society just that tiny bit better.

The priority is the kid's education. On average, private schools get much better results than state schools. Without knowing much else about the PP other than they are apparently BAME and can afford private school, in such a position I would always advise private school lacking any other information. My anecdotal evidence is that I went to a private school, 20 years ago. Thinking back, I'd guess it was probably 20% BAME, so maybe 80% white, 17% Indian / Pakistani, 3% black. I cannot remember seeing or hearing a single racist comment. Perhaps I was fortunate, but I'd be willing to bet that the 20% BAME for the most part have fond memories of their schooling and benefitted like the rest of us from the superior education to carve out nice lives for ourselves.

Sugarintheplum · 04/09/2020 20:06

@PapaPoule

About a year ago my mate's son was surrounded by white children shouting 'blackie go home' at a popular south London private school. Very sad, but not shocking to me. Things aren't changing fast enough. Maybe it's a one off? Let me direct you to this just in case you're inclined to think so:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/22/racism-uk-schools-teenager

I won't stop there. I'll take this opportunity to go further if i may. There are some excellent seminal older texts, but your comment makes me think 'contemporary' might go down better. A white female writer who makes very good points is Robin DiAngelo:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Fragility

Some UK writers have published very recently:

Akala - Natives
Reni EL - Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race
Afua Hirsch - Brit(ish)

If like lots of us reading is a luxury right now you're in luck as there's some good accessible tv out there right now:

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0834rgs/will-britain-ever-have-a-black-prime-minister

In the above you'll see how teachers systematically underestimate black kids' abilities. Heartbreaking. Angering

www.channel4.com/programmes/the-talk

Gosh. So much out there right now. And this stuff is just an intro!

I'll leave you to explore! Then maybe we can pick this back up. I look forward to it.

Thanks!

OP posts:
Letsallscreamatthesistene · 04/09/2020 20:18

I'd be willing to bet that the 20% BAME for the most part have fond memories of their schooling and benefitted like the rest of us from the superior education to carve out nice lives for ourselves.

How could you ever know this? You sound like you're looking back with rose tinted glasses

Madcats · 04/09/2020 21:52

Going back to the "clubs and societies" should we/shouldn't we enrol our white child? - I think the eagerness to enrol/success in enrolling is more of a pointy-elbow middle class thing....though I do think that "positive integration' was "a thing" to my inner-city (arguably privileged) work and Uni mates. Again I state this from a predominately white middle class city where most of the black kids we know are rich (and the girls were in DD's ballet school classes for a while).

OP and other Nice White Parents podcast listeners if you are still around, what should I think about this article in the LA Times today?:
www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-09-04/black-lives-matter-white-people-portland-protests-nfl

As somebody in their 50's in a middle class bubble, completely mystified by a lot of social media spats, that seem even more pronounce now so many people have been stuck at home behind a keyboard. I tend to confine my spoken opinions to the weather, cookery and other innocuous topics.

I AM conscious that we all tend to surround ourselves in an echo chamber of what feels comfortable to our eyes and ears. I try to compensate for this by glancing through world papers each day (hence stumbling on the podcast referred to and then the news article).

As an aside, I'm a swim-mum and I've never really understood the "black people don't swim" thing. Possibly because DD had a wonderful black African swim teacher (albeit he was from an island community) and I've travelled a fair bit to coastal Africa and Caribbean. The kids there were doing a pretty good job of swimming; they didn't have access to the swimming pools and hours and hours of ££ pool training and hours and hours of travelling/waiting to swim in competitions that a competitive swimmer needs. [DD is a regional swimmer and we are definitely seeing more BAME swimmers competing]

So I guess I am a nice, but culturally dim, white parent (with pointy elbows).

PapaPoule · 05/09/2020 00:10

@Letsallscreamatthesistene

I'd be willing to bet that the 20% BAME for the most part have fond memories of their schooling and benefitted like the rest of us from the superior education to carve out nice lives for ourselves.

How could you ever know this? You sound like you're looking back with rose tinted glasses

I don't know it, merely going off my memories of hanging out with them at the time and Facebook photos of what appear to be happy folks getting on with lives as dentists, doctors, financial advisors and the like. It could well be rose-tinted, hopefully Covid will allow us to have our 20-year reunion next year and I'll get a better idea.
TerraMirabilis · 05/09/2020 01:25

I think people who disagree with the OP aren't doing it willfully, they just don't get it. Segregation as happened in the American south or in South Africa is just not the same as providing spaces for Black or Asian or whatever other group of children to be with one another without white children present or with the white children being very much a minority within the group. The former was a systemic, governmentally imposed imbalance of power and resources targeted at an oppressed group. The latter is a voluntary activity of which there are numerous non-BAME-prioritising and in fact white-dominated alternatives readily available.

The life experience of BAME children is shaped in part by racism. Opportunities to strengthen bonds with one another, avoid the microaggressions white people are likely to perpetuate, and simply BE in a space where they are not constantly othered is important to developing self esteem, confidence, pride etc.

I think the group leaders should give priority to BAME children so they leapfrog white children on the list.

HarrietM87 · 05/09/2020 06:17

As (almost certainly) a “nice white parent” I agree I wouldn’t send my child to a “BAME ballet school”, but I absolutely would send my child to a “ballet school which celebrated BAME children”... that’s the difference OP.

The problem is with the school not the parents. The school can (and probably should given their aims) give priority to BAME children. But if they don’t actively wish to do this then I don’t see how you can blame any parent for sending their child there. I didn’t realise that “celebrate diversity” should be read as “white children not wanted” - do you think that’s what it means?

Longtalljosie · 05/09/2020 06:26

Good grief! This thread. For the record OP - my DC and I are white and if there was a local ballet school whose stated mission was to increase BAME participation in ballet, I assume the service was not intended for me. Were my DC mixed race, I would

Camomila · 05/09/2020 06:51

As an aside, I'm a swim-mum and I've never really understood the "black people don't swim" thing.

We used to take DS1 to baby swimming in Croydon, there were 2 or 3 white DC in his class and everyone else was BAME. It definitely reflected the local demographic.

He might have been the only non-white baby at baby yoga though.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/09/2020 07:19

Are you saying I should not express my emotions? I'm not sure why I would do that. If it is so that you feel better, I'll respectfully decline and continue to be connected to all parts of myself. But thanks for the recommendation. Yeah! That's precisely what I said!

I meant what I said.. when any communication is laoded with emotional turns of phrase it is always designed to make the other person stop and try to avoid hurting feelings, turn themselves inside out to "be kind". Doesn't work on some, it's just annoying! And usually deflects any conversation to the individual.... just as this thread has done in part.

Floralbean · 05/09/2020 07:37

Sometimes the thoughts of the ballet school and the interpretation of what their aims are aren't the same. The discussion on whether there should be completely seperate classes and whether there should be for a particular place is different. Should there be? Yeah, if it's something people would find beneficial than absolutely. If it's BB school (I know it might not be, but as it's the most high profile perhaps it is), the founder is quite clear that white dancers are also welcome, so they must feel that their aims are still achievable like that.

Livingthecovidaloca · 05/09/2020 07:56

@Sugarintheplum - I listened to the podcast over a few days last week. Absolute brilliant and so much to think about. The history of segregation in schools was fascinating.
It gave me a lot to think about, who do we give a voice to, how do we give them a voice. Our PTA at very racially diverse school, is all white. I’d never really stopped and considered that previously.
The school at the end that microscopically observed their lessons for racial bias, gave me a lot of ideas on what to look for in my own classes.
Thank you for posting about this podcast.

HeronLanyon · 05/09/2020 08:00

livingthecovidalocal that was my reaction to the podcast too. Very thought provoking and highlighted obvious truths that are so normalised they are not even recognised a lot of the time.

Longtalljosie · 05/09/2020 08:20

@Camomila I think the black people and swimming thing is more of a thing in the US but I’m entirely happy to be corrected. I saw an appalling video on social media of a family group of older children ordered out of their own swimming pool in the US by a policeman who assumed because they were black, that they were trespassing...