Nice White Parents

[Sugarintheplum]

This podcast has been fascinating. Has anyone else been listening?

I've long seen that reflected in my life / kids lives. But what I am still lacking is an understanding of the thought process these parents go through.

For example, I used to send my children to a very diverse tap / ballet /drama class where I lived previously. It was very mixed ethnically. Lovely lovely place. Where I live now the classes are more expensive (the area is still very diverse), and the kids who attend these classes are more than likely white and middle class. I yearn for other kids who look like my kids to join for a myriad of reasons. There IS a ballet school in this part of town that has the stated mission to improve representation of ethnic minorities in ballet through the adult core to the school for children. There is a waiting list BUT STILL white parents send there kids there. This means ethnic minority children are waiting while white children take up the place. I see that and honestly wonder what the parents are thinking. And this is just a tiny example, but it happens in other aspects of life, too.

It needs to be explained to me because I'm truly lost!

I think the school needs to make its messaging clearer. As a white person I would never apply to a job scheme, for instance, that was 'for' BAME people, but I would apply for a job at an organisation that proudly said it 'celebrated' BAME people - indeed, I'd see that as attractive, why wouldn't I want to work somewhere that celebrates BAME people?

The school could also have an explicit policy that BAME students have priority for places as part of their mission, and if there are indeed a lot of BAME children who want to go but are stuck on the waiting list then that would be a very reasonable step.

I don't think it's fair to expect parents to realise that if a ballet school 'celebrates BAME dancers' that means it's only for BAME dancers; indeed, I'm not sure that that's what the school thinks it means, even if you think it should be what it means.

Btw some of the most deprived wards in the UK are largely white. It's actually racist and patronising to assume automatically that black = deprived.

So that white people ‘get it’ I would frame this in the context of men and women. We often talk about female only spaces being of importance, this is a similar (although importantly not the same) situation. Female spaces aren’t just to avoid the ‘threat’ of men but it’s to be women amongst women.

Absolutely. But if you advertise an event not as a female-only space but as a space that 'celebrates' women then you can't be expected when men show up.

Argh, that was meant to say you can't be surprised when men show up

Surely the ideal would be for them to facilitate an increase in numbers if they have a large waiting list? If the performances are different as in they take a heavier influence from different cultures and inspiration from a more diverse range of performers, then surely its great for learning, inclusion etc to expose everyone to that? Presumably the classes either aren't able to (not sure on discrimination law here) or don't want to filter applicants out, because they must feel a benefit to being inclusive. I know it's not the same regarding white people, but would a white person only class be beneficial for the profession of society at all either?

[quote PaulinePetrovaPosey]@Sugarintheplum I'm Jewish but not necessarily visibly 'other', DH is British Indian.

Maybe it's because we're a very mixed family, but I really worry that anything aimed specifically at non-white populations just entrenches division.

[/quote]
I agree. I live in a very posh part of the UK that comprises a majority Indian population. All the BAME initiatives and funding is taken up by rich Indian kids - yet when the council puts in a salary limit (or ties supppor to income) it’s usually just the white parents who apply. Over here I think it’s because the focus for working class BAME parents is academics.

OP I really enjoyed those NYTimes podcasts (search for Nice White Parents - that's the title), but I am not sure many Mumsnetters will have heard them. I found the series a real eye-opener.
The amount of money that fundraiser was going after (and getting)!

I don't know what to suggest about your ballet class dilemma. I always sent DD to the local one and would like to think that the teachers wanted to nurture every child. Saying that our town doesn't have many BAME kids.

@anotherday If you can find where I have said your child shouldn't be anywhere, please quote it at me. And my question on being visibly BAME was to satisfy a few questions I was forming about that parent's experiences vis a vis her child's. There's nothing wrong with that in my mind. If you appear to be a different ethnicity than your child / parent then different experiences can result. Sometimes it even impacts your ability to understand one another on related issues. Am I the only one who thinks this? I think probably not given this excellent piece of tv recently - www.itv.com/hub/unsaid-stories/10a0562a0004

I read it as a bit like a new football club being set up with the aim of increasing the number of girls playing football and all the places being taken by boys, defeats the point really. I'm white and my kids are mixed race and generally I never took them to anything that was specifically set up for BAME kids, on the other hand I grew up in England and went to the local Irish Centre for my dancing lessons, I think my parents would have been bemused if there was no space for Irish kids because it was so popular with English parents.

I think a black dance company was set up in New York as it is so hard for black dancers to get anywhere in ballet.

Can you imagine if a white person came on here and complained that the ballet school was not all white????

I would actively choose to send my (non existent) white kids to a ballet school that celebrated diversity over those that celebrate whiteness. Maybe the issue here is that the other ballet schools need to cop on and celebrate diversity too?

OP I’ve listened to the Nice White Parents podcast, and found it fascinating. I understand why you have started this thread because, following listening to the podcast, I have a better understanding of what happens to schools (and I imagine other groups, such as ballet classes), that are historically attended by BAME families/pupils when the nice white parents start getting involved.

The podcast is very US education centric so I spent quite a lot of time after each episode trying to understand how similar changes could (and I presume, do) happen in UK schools.

As a nice white parent myself it was certainly quite hard hitting in parts and I’ve been doing a lot of reflection since.

At face value, celebrating BAME dancers and seeking to improve BAME representation in ballet, is a different thing from existing for the core purpose of providing a route into ballet for BAME students.

The former can be read as being a part of what the schools does, while also being a neighbourhood ballet school. The latter would suggest a school offering a specialist service to selected students from a wider catchment area.

If diversity is the objective, why would you want white people to avoid? This literally makes no sense.

@RubyFakeLips

When you’re in the group that is not the majority, having places where you don’t always feel the minority is important.

So that white people ‘get it’ I would frame this in the context of men and women. We often talk about female only spaces being of importance, this is a similar (although importantly not the same) situation. Female spaces aren’t just to avoid the ‘threat’ of men but it’s to be women amongst women.

I want somewhere I can be myself amongst ‘my own’ where I’m not other or different or lesser and I want that specific space because the majority group get everything and everywhere to be that.

So do you think that areas where white people are a minority, such as some London boroughs and Leicester for example, should setup white only classes, etc? I'm talking about areas with deprived children (and adults) regardless of skin colour. Or instead perhaps people could see beyond 'identities' and see each individual person.

If a ballet school said it 'celebrates Asian' dancers, I really wouldn't send my child who is not Asian there, and not out of resentment but out of support for their mission. Even if the schools was not that exclusive?

As a kid, back in the 70s, I went to an Asian dance class for about 18 months. Me with my milky white skin and shocking red hair. I was one of 2 or 3 white kids. It was run for local kids by Asian parents. I was not excluded or made to feel at all unwelcome. I made a few friends, ate a lot of himemade curry that has spoiled takeaways for me forever, and taught a couple of mums how to say a few English words.

And we are supposed to have made progress! But I find myself saying that a lot about many social mores of the 70s and 80s. Which is why I really want one of these threads to remain friendly and properly discuss the issues at the heart of such feelings!

@madcats - thank you for your response!

If it’s specifically a school for BAME children then the school is at fault because they shouldn’t be accepting any white children at all.

If it’s a school for everyone then presumably it’s first come first served, regardless of skin colour.

It sounds like you’re saying it’s a school for everyone, but BAME children should be allowed to jump to the top of the waiting list, or possibly even accommodated by booting a white child out? I don’t find that reasonable.

The podcast is brilliant. Although the details are specific to the US, the overall idea would be very familiar to people in the UK.

As for the ballet school issue, it does sound somewhat similar to the situations described in the podcast. Good intentions + privilege + inaccurate assumptions/expectations = potentially negative results.

I do get what you mean OP (and I'm not BAME btw) but I suspect that the white parents either haven't realised that the school has a BAME focus or assume that if their children are accepted then the school thinks its okay..

It is a shame - do you know if the school thinks it's problematic? There are ways they could increase the proportion of BAME students

Ballet is popular with middle class parents. Middle class parents are more likely to be white. Ballet is a western tradition and probably not appealing to some people from other cultures. Working class white people will also be underrepresented in ballet.

There’s no easy answer. Although America is more geographically segregated than the UK so it may be harder to appeal only to black families.

There is a wider issue of the sharp elbowed middle classes being ‘entitled’. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, and not just a white people thing, there’s pushy parents from other cultures for sure. But this ‘entitlement’ isn’t shared by the working classes and disadvantages them as they miss out to the middle class. This is what happened with sure start centres. Lack of ‘entitlement’ leads to people not doing so well, or aiming higher, in education and career so perpetuating itself.

Rather than cutting down the white middle classes we need to level up the working classes, which includes a lot of BAME families. I suspect a working class black person suffers more racism and exclusion in the UK than a middle class one.

Should have added, the school should be selective on to BAME students. I believe there is a legal basis for this in employment in the equalities act, I don’t know if it would apply in this scenario or if the school would be subject to legal action as discriminatory. The school may also have an objective but find business wise it isn’t all viable, dependant on if they receive any funding or are solely a small for profit company.

My DH and DC are black and I am Jewish but I guess white, although many people comment I look ‘Arab or something’ Yes, I struggle filling out forms!

So that white people ‘get it’ I would frame this in the context of men and women. We often talk about female only spaces being of importance, this is a similar (although importantly not the same) situation. Female spaces aren’t just to avoid the ‘threat’ of men but it’s to be women amongst women. That makes some sense to me, thanks!

And as others have said, of the schools was BAME only I would support it wholeheartedly.. but would still have reservations about separatism in the long run - which, I am guessing, one of the 'not the same' nesses!

@CuriousaboutSamphire - I'm not sure your inverted example works unless you also invert around 500 years of international history.....

I also did Asian dancing when I was younger. Excellent excellent. I still work some moves on the dance floor today. Probably VERY badly!

If people aren't getting it, have you considered that your argument has not been particularly clear, OP? You seem to be trying to thread a particular fine argument which boils down to advocating for self-imposed apartheid.

Parents could send their kids to this class for whatever reason. It's closer. It's cheaper. It's better. Their kids classmates go there. If people can't send their kids where they want because of the colour of their skin, then frankly society is taking a retrograde step.