Nice White Parents

[Sugarintheplum]

This podcast has been fascinating. Has anyone else been listening?

I've long seen that reflected in my life / kids lives. But what I am still lacking is an understanding of the thought process these parents go through.

For example, I used to send my children to a very diverse tap / ballet /drama class where I lived previously. It was very mixed ethnically. Lovely lovely place. Where I live now the classes are more expensive (the area is still very diverse), and the kids who attend these classes are more than likely white and middle class. I yearn for other kids who look like my kids to join for a myriad of reasons. There IS a ballet school in this part of town that has the stated mission to improve representation of ethnic minorities in ballet through the adult core to the school for children. There is a waiting list BUT STILL white parents send there kids there. This means ethnic minority children are waiting while white children take up the place. I see that and honestly wonder what the parents are thinking. And this is just a tiny example, but it happens in other aspects of life, too.

It needs to be explained to me because I'm truly lost!

But ballet is a ethnically and culturally a White form of dance. I’d expect more white kids participating because that is their culture. To have a goal of more non whites doing a white art form seems like pressure to assimilate and conform to me. The school would be better off approaching diversity by adding in other ethnicities cultures dance forms and letting people choose.

@Letsallscream. From the comments some people clearly don't get it. There's not much denying that, I hope. 'Segregation does not lead to racial harmony' is an example of that. It's a great utilitarian sentiment, it's just not always what some BAME people feel they need.

Also affluent doesn't necessarily mean white - or does it mean this to you

No it doesn't but the overwhelming majority of children in her ballet class were white...My experience living in London is that affluent areas are generally less diverse. That's obviously not to say that all bame people are living in poverty and all white people are wealthy...that is clearly nonsense. I'm making a general point about demographics, geography and deprivation.

Also building on @LadyCatStark 's point - one serious problem with specifically BAME activities is that the other options become white by default, and so potentially less inclusive.

@PlanDeRaccordement I pretty much wholeheartedly disagree with you there. And in any case I know lots of BAME families on the waiting list, so lack of willing participation among BAME children and families does not seem to be the issue. And that's among other issues that I really don't feel this is a safe space to talk about given the response I've had here so far.

Sorry but I think this is odd, and perhaps it is because I am a white woman I just dont get it? Surely the parents would want to send their children to the ballet school in their area or the one their friends attend, no matter what the skin colour of their friends is? No family is going to think "I had better not send my white child there as it is BAME (hate that term) positive? Isn't inclusivity and integration vital? I wouldn't have a problem btw if there was a scholarship programme specifically for talented BAME children to help with fees to somewhere like The Hammond.

I do understand what you mean but if the opportunity to join that particular group or any other group is equal for everyone then I struggle to see the issue. Are you saying that bame people will be put off joining groups which are less diverse hence the need for a separate one?

Which country are you in?

Maybe the ballet kids should just state no white kids allowed? Would that be fine . Or less contoversial for BAME kids only. People arent mind readers , i wouldnt expect anywhere that encourages a diverse population to mean no whites allowed. Not sure though if i was a BAME person i would be keen for kids to be segregated by skin colour, its feels a bit apartheid. Especially if down the road another ballet school was 100% white as the white kids cant go to the BAME one.

OP im struggling to see which reponses has led you to think this isnt a safe space? Nobody has attacked you or insulted you. People HAVE disagreed with you because the wording of your opening post is inflammatory. People are allowed to disagree.

@PaulinePetrovaPosey Thanks. I would never use the term 'other' to describe anyone btw, and hope I didn't make you feel othered.

I think there are a lot of BAME who feel they really need those safe spaces. I think there has been a lot of discussion about this recently around Black Lives Matters, which I'm very thankful for.

So perhaps those parents send their children there precisely because they disagree with the school's stated mission. But that just seems strange to me. Perhaps as one poster said, they are really just thinking about their own children having diverse experiences and they haven't considered or don't care much, or really haven't at all thought that resource is therefore being used at the expense of the BAME children on the waiting list. Maybe like the Nice White Parents podcast they actually think their presence makes it better. I had some of these thoughts but wanted to ask, so thanks for your responses so far.

Ah! There it is. The thing that some here said was not ever going to happen! The unintended consequence of increasing particiaption by positive action.

BAME inclusiveness = separatism! The precise behaviour that made such a school necessary in the first place!

That's a dilemma that needs resolving fast. Or the most benevolant, well intentioned actions will only serve to fuel an already heated situation.

I really don't feel this is a safe space to talk about given the response I've had here so far. But how can we white posters understand the BAME perspective if we don't challenge each other and discuss such things. Here is far easier than real life. I REALLY want one of these posts to grow into a proper debate, an exchange of idea without the judgement and hissy fitting (not you OP, but many posters on similar threads).

I see what you mean, most posters here have acknowledge that. It's a resource for BAME kids run by BAME individuals. But as an organisation they are not selecting by skin colour/ethnicity so of course all kids who are eligible will be on the waiting list.

What is the solution?

Do you think that racism will be solved by separatism?
Do you think that a school with a great BAME focus that teaches all kids, regardless of their enthnicity, will help educate kids, reduce racism?

Is there a real call for a white exclusive school? Have parts of the UK reached that stage already?

Excuse me but I live in a rural area. We have a lot of ethnic minorities represented here but they are mostly white. And the BAME residents here are rarely noted for the colour of their skin.. they are just outsiders, Movers In, like the rest of us Newcomers! We have a Born and Bred vs Newcomers divide!

And that's among other issues that I really don't feel this is a safe space to talk about given the response I've had here so far.
Please don't think that. We all have such different experiences and backgrounds. The fact that people here are free to anonymously question, debate and become better educated by each other's experiences is a very rare thing.

I think those parents are thinking about their kids having diverse experiences, and not thinking any deeper into the issue than that.

Excuse me again. I made an assumption. Google tells me that the podcast is American and about some quite specific circumstances.

medium.com/age-of-awareness/review-of-nice-white-parents-podcast-disjointed-and-disillusioned-4e8cd05bc714

If this was a group specifically created fur BAME children, I wouldn’t send my child.
If it was a group that strives on including BAME children, to make accessible to them etc... then I would expect with white and BAME children to participate and I would have no issue taking my child there.

What is that ballet class for? Has it been created ONLY fir BAME children ?

Are you saying that white children shouldn't attend a ballet school that aims to widen diversity? I'd so, I'm really not sure if that is helpful. Can you imagine setting up a whites one?!

I understand that it is a real shame if ballet classes don't represent the local demographic. I think there are better ways of overcoming that though. Is it a location thing, do BAME children not feel it's for the 'likes of them', how much is it, do local BAME families have a different economic situation? Find out why and then get stuck into those issues rather than having an unspoken hostility to white people.

My daughter does ballet and the things that I think about when doing a club are location, time, cost and quality of the club in that order. Maybe the local white families are just working on the same principle.

Your simplistic hostility to white people will not address the barriers that exist and do the cause of racism against BAME people a disservice.

I'm in England.

The ballet school states that it 'celebrates' BAME dancers. I think that is quite a powerful statement. If a ballet school said it 'celebrates Asian' dancers, I really wouldn't send my child who is not Asian there, and not out of resentment but out of support for their mission. I'd personally love to see more Asian ballet dancers. I think that would be great! I also understand how exclusive typical ballet schools might be for Asian dancers. I think there is a lot of racism in ballet so the mission is valid. But don't take it from me, i'm not expert, over to Misty Copeland: time.com/5098808/misty-copeland-raven-wilkinson-book/

Another question is why are you saying that white children going there are stopping AGAIN BAME children to access ballet?
Are you finding that BAME children are being stopped from going to predominantly white classes? Are there specific hurdles that BAME children encounter there?

I really don't understand where you are coming from. So you would rather exclude a 'white child's so that a BAME child has priority?

I ask as a parent of a half black half other minority DC, who has been told, and quoting you, 'a visibly' black person that my DC wasn't black enough to warrant certain provisions such as the ballet class you mention.

So where do you draw the line? I certain wouldn't want my DC gaining a place somewhere simply because the colour of their skin, at the expense of any child!

@wisenotboring I've already said there are MANY BAME kids on the waiting list, so it's not on them. And I'm not being hostile to white people here. There's no evidence that I'm hostile to white people anywhere on this thread. Those are just two sentences that I saw when I glimpsed your comment which I won't now read in full.

Did someone say this was a safe space?!

And in regards to my affluent comment, you did say this in your op

Where I live now the classes are more expensive (the area is still very diverse), and the kids who attend these classes are more than likely white and middle class

By the way, do the white parents of the white children actually know there is a waiting list and that bame children are waiting for places?

I think you are being highly unreasonable not to expect white parents to send their children to a good ballet school just because it promotes diversity. Turn your statement round on its head - would it be considered ok (or even legal) for there to be a whites-only ballet class? Of course not.
Segregation is never the answer.

Presumably the white parents live in the area and haven't the time or money to send their children to a class further away. No-one would want to spend extra to travel further - unless they were racist and saw skin colour rather than an individual person.

When you’re in the group that is not the majority, having places where you don’t always feel the minority is important.

So that white people ‘get it’ I would frame this in the context of men and women. We often talk about female only spaces being of importance, this is a similar (although importantly not the same) situation. Female spaces aren’t just to avoid the ‘threat’ of men but it’s to be women amongst women.

I want somewhere I can be myself amongst ‘my own’ where I’m not other or different or lesser and I want that specific space because the majority group get everything and everywhere to be that.