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Nice White Parents

208 replies

Sugarintheplum · 03/09/2020 13:31

This podcast has been fascinating. Has anyone else been listening?

I've long seen that reflected in my life / kids lives. But what I am still lacking is an understanding of the thought process these parents go through.

For example, I used to send my children to a very diverse tap / ballet /drama class where I lived previously. It was very mixed ethnically. Lovely lovely place. Where I live now the classes are more expensive (the area is still very diverse), and the kids who attend these classes are more than likely white and middle class. I yearn for other kids who look like my kids to join for a myriad of reasons. There IS a ballet school in this part of town that has the stated mission to improve representation of ethnic minorities in ballet through the adult core to the school for children. There is a waiting list BUT STILL white parents send there kids there. This means ethnic minority children are waiting while white children take up the place. I see that and honestly wonder what the parents are thinking. And this is just a tiny example, but it happens in other aspects of life, too.

It needs to be explained to me because I'm truly lost!

OP posts:
HelloDulling · 03/09/2020 21:59

[quote Sugarintheplum]@PapaPoule

yes, could be that I'm not being clear. I'll bullet:

  • There is a ballet school
  • Ballet school's mission is to celebrate Black ballet dancers
  • White parents send their white children there
  • Black children languish on the waiting list

I wondered what might lead white parents to send their white children to said ballet school.[/quote]
I suppose if it’s a school that has got more popular over time, when many of those children got their places, there was no waiting list. There were spaces, they applied, they started classes. I think any parent would be reluctant to give up their place where their child is happy/doing well and change to another school. And honestly, I doubt it would occur to many people that they should.

The school should do some positive discrimination and bump the BAME kids to the top of the list though.

hnhvt · 03/09/2020 22:13

I'm with you OP. I am white, I don't know your experiences but I see what you mean here.

As a white mother to a white child I would LIKE to send my child do a more diverse ballet school to benefit my child. However, if I realised that BAME children were missing out because my child took their place I would be mortified.

I think I'd see it as my already privileged child gaining something. When the already underprivileged BAME children are missing out on something that could help them.

There are other ways to give white children these experiences.

I also see the argument that if no white children attended at all, the BAME children would be voluntarily segregated. Not sure that is good either?

Sounds like it's an impossible thing to manage fairly? The ballet school cant say 'for every 4 BAME children we allow in off the waiting list, we will only allow 2 white children' that then puts the responsibility on white parents to look around the room once they already have their child's much waited for place and say 'actually no I'll give my place up in the hopes a black child is one after us' nobody would do that after waiting on a list, deposits and buying all the crap you have to buy for it.

PlanDeRaccordement · 03/09/2020 22:24

@Veterinari
You obviously didn’t understand my post, so not convinced you are right that I’ve misunderstood the OP.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

PlanDeRaccordement · 03/09/2020 22:31

You are all assuming that BAME children want to learn ballet (not their culture) with same frequency as white children (is their culture). You have no right to expect “diversity” especially since the most here are waxing lyrical about how diversity is really for the benefit of their white child’s development. My BAME children don’t owe your child an education on how to not be racist. They don’t owe you a sense of comfort that your child isn’t growing up over privileged in a “white enclave”.
The whole idea of a quota for BAME children assumes that there is a large untapped demand from BAME parents to send their children to learn white cultural dances. You don’t even know if that is the case. You look at low numbers and assume BAME are being excluded instead of choosing/ not being interested. Maybe ask us? Instead of having this debate and talking about discrimination on the basis of race for wait lists and class places and funding and so on.

EssentialHummus · 03/09/2020 22:52

You look at low numbers and assume BAME are being excluded instead of choosing/ not being interested.

The OP has written about BAME children “languishing” on the waiting list.

Sugarintheplum · 03/09/2020 22:55

A lot of presumptions being made about me and what I mean / have intended. I can't address them all, and it's very energy zapping for black people to do that so much. Before I know it I won't have time to do all the progressive things I have on my to do list!

I do think minority groups need the opportunity to have access to resources and opportunities that would otherwise likely be out of reach for them and this is often achieved by specifically making room for them and making resources available only for them. Single sex education for example, or women in STEM. Likewise I have no problem with American HBCUs. No problem with Jewish School or Catholic School. No problem. I've also got no problem with a ballet company trying to address the discrimination in ballet by celebrating black students and aiming to increase participation of young black people. I think it's clearly a shame then when the proportion of black students falls - that is defeating their own objective. If you agree the aim was valid, even noble, it follows that you'd not want that outcome. I don't think they should have to say 'non-black not allowed'. In any case it is not lawful to do that and where it might be lawful it is tricky and then there is the sentiment that ouch, barring children of any background is just reprehensible. No one wants to do that. So I understand that white parents can freely apply for their white children to join. That is what led me to instead ponder the mind of the white parents who are doing just that.

We can say, of course, out of ten children there are 4 white - so what? A ha, well then what about the next white parent who thinks: it's close by, I really want MY kid to experience ballet with black kids and not just white middle class kids like us, and ohh the price is good, and I like what they are doing with the kids there? Well then it's 5/10. Then another white parent. And another, and another and suddenly its 8/10 white middle class. Then the black people are looking around scratching their heads and wondering why the school is called BAME Ballet School and the white parents are cheerfully not seeing or thinking there is a problem because they're colour blind or at least their kids are getting a more diverse experience than elsewhere. I mean I think BAME ballet school pretty much says it on the tin.

I'll repeat I would NOT send my kid to Asian Ballet School, or Jewish Athletics Club, or to an LGBT youth group, or one for foster children, or children with disabilities. Just wouldn't. I wouldn't need to problematise what 'celebrate' means, or what 'increase participation' meant, I would have long moved on, probably messaging my Asian/Jewish/LGBT etc friends to let them know these clubs exist. I don't think every corner of the world should be open to ME and MINE when I know also there is discrimination out there of which I am a beneficiary, though unwillingly.

A lot of the responses here are persuading me that perhaps some of those white parents either want to be centred or don't even see when they are moving themselves into the centre. Because they might generally feel safe, and/or they haven't felt discrimination or prejudice meaningfully and negatively impact their lives they don't see that people who do experience this pretty much every day of their lives might want a break from it for themselves and/or their kids.

I'm not being hyperbolic here. I remember as a child going swimming and being told that black people have too much muscle to be great swimmers, we naturally sink, so don't reach too high with your swimming. I remember hearing football commentators saying black players were not intelligent enough. I remember black kids at school being put into remedial classes (those people now running their own businesses and even a well-known personality on TV). So yes, I believe black only spaces are needed in some areas against a context of historical and enduring racism and discrimination, of which ballet is one. Unsurprisingly that is important to me.

Some have asked how black children are not top of the list if it's simply first come first serve. There are probably lots of reasons, and one might be that sharp-elbowed parents get in there and hoover up resources which is well-documented elsewhere. In my first post I mentioned the kids were white and middle class. I think class has a lot to do with it.

I can't respond to each message that asks a question of me and also be a good mum to be honest, I've got (a hem) a few kids here to parent. It ain't easy!!!

But just to say, my question has been answered. Thanks All.

OP posts:
Sugarintheplum · 03/09/2020 23:05

Ah, sorry, on giving up places. This is actually something people have started doing, particularly since George Floyd, BLM etc. I think it's a great move: www.newschain.uk/news/serena-williams-husband-and-reddit-co-founder-alexis-ohanian-quits-seat-board-and-asks-be-replaced-black-candidate-11860

Ok, I really am going now!

OP posts:
Rookie93 · 04/09/2020 03:32

Appreciate that you've gone - but still wanted to say thank you for the intoduction to those podcasts. They've made me think, a lot and because they are from the US not something I'd previously come across. There are lots of similarities, to me anyway, with how the private / public sector operate and what then happens to the people those services are meant to support. Thanks again.

lottiegarbanzo · 04/09/2020 07:19

OP, I think you've got it spot on here: [white parents] ...don't even see when they are moving themselves into the centre. Because they might generally feel safe, and/or they haven't felt discrimination or prejudice meaningfully and negatively impact their lives they don't see that people who do experience this pretty much every day of their lives might want a break from it for themselves and/or their kids.

That's my experience of being white and middle class. It's also my experience, as a woman, of the perspective men take when excluded from women only spaces or events (and it has to be excluded, not discouraged, because many don't take hints. Certainly not 'encouraged to think about someone else' because they won't). Except that my experience is that men are arsier, more argumentative and demanding about it. All that 'why can't I access this women-only space? Why am I not welcome? That's not fair! I feel discriminated against! Where is 'men's hour'? Who are these delicate flowers who need their own time and space? They need to learn to live in an equal society (and be grateful for it). My taxes are paying for this. I have rights. I demand my equal right to access! (Some of the more unpleasant ones will make a nuisance of themselves to persue this point). Plenty of women take a similarly sneery but less aggressive line on women-only spaces.

As a white parent of a white child, who doesn't know much about ballet but who sends a child to ballet classes, I didn't even realise, until I thought about it, that ballet was a 'white art form'. That is, of course it is historically, because of the countries it originated in. Russians, in Moscow and St Petersburg anyway, have mostly been white. Parisians too, until more recently.

Now though and as a children's hobby? It only really struck me when I went to dd's dance school show and almost every child looked the same; white with long swishy hair. That represents a large sub-set of the neighbourhood but certainly a specific, unrepresentative sub-set.

The examples that jumped to mind immediately on reading your OP were of publicly-funded services aimed at low-income families, which MC parents will happily swoop in and take, if it's convenient to them. Parents who could easily have paid for private baby yoga / massage / signing lessons, or whatever, without even noticing the expense. Without thinking about why those classes were being offered free, by a children's centre (or why those exist), in those neighbourhoods. If they did, they'd just think the target population should have been quicker off the mark, weren't organised enough to benefit from them, or maybe didn't want them.

Would I send my dd to the ballet school you mention? I don't think so. I hope not. But I am assuming there are other ballet schools nearby, also within walking distance, that don't have prohibitive waiting lists. Would I inconvenience myself to go to a more distant school, if yours was my 'local' and had spaces? Maybe a bit, maybe not hugely (i'd probably decide against ballet and look for another local activity).

Whereas, if it was plainly a 'specialist academy', 'welcoming BAME children', with nothing about welcoming other member of the local community, then maybe I'd know not to ask.

I think there is a small ambiguity between 'encouraging BAME children within the school' and 'encouraging BAME children through the existence of the school and in all that it does'.

And I think you have to treat 'the privileged' in whatever case, as being a bit thick. State the rules clearly. Really spell things out for us, slooowly.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 04/09/2020 07:34

Just to bring you up to date on the black people swimming thing, it is nothing to do with too many muscles but fat storage patterns affecting bouyancy! It used to be thought that black people's bones were more dense, lots of science behind that one, based on environmental adaptation. That still holds true, the adaptation bit, but is now, now we have better ways of measuring the human body, the differences are more ascribed to social mores than physical adaptations.

After that, you might get further if you stop with the emotional load:

I can't address them all, and it's very energy zapping for black people to do that so much. Before I know it I won't have time to do all the progressive things I have on my to do list! Many posters here, myself included, have said they agree with you in part, but disagree with some of what you say. Why continue to alienate that? Why not just engage with the positive bits? We can all see th negatvioty and have, for the most part, ignored or challenged it!

As for State the rules clearly. Really spell things out for us, slooowly. @lottiegarbanzo you might want to rethink that! You embarrass yourself, and insult everyone else, no matter what their skin colour!

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 04/09/2020 07:46

It's not that I don't see your point OP, but the ballet school has clearly welcomed these children and their parents money. So it's on them if the dynamic changes. Parents are always going to (and are supposed to) put their own children first, ahead of other people's. It's unreasonable (imo) to ask them to deny their children opportunities, to benefit other people's children. It's not a natural part of human behaviour. Even if there were lots of ballet schools within spitting distance of each other, do you really want black ones and white ones?
I'm not sure I agree that activities should be for specific types of children anyway. I think the way we get a future society which isn't racist is by not saying some things are for X but not for Y. Where everyone gets exactly the same choices and opportunities and treatment. That's why it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of skin colour, which is kind of what you want white parents to do unofficially.

HeronLanyon · 04/09/2020 07:52

Great podcast I agree.

Byallmeans · 04/09/2020 08:00

@Sugarintheplum

Hi All,

The stated mission is to increase the participation of Black and ethnic minorities in ballet. The entire adult troupe is BAME. The ballet school for children is mostly BAME at the moment but with increasing numbers of white children there.

I'm all for diversity. In this case the mission was to run a school to encourage BAME children specifically. My question is - if you respect the school's aim to increase participation of BAME in ballet, why would you, as a white parent, want to send your white children there? There are lots of ballet schools around, but likely not so many where BAME are as welcome and encouraged, which is the POINT OF THE SCHOOL!

It's interesting in itself that I have been asked to explain this. I do find that interesting, i'm not being rude!

For me it shows that despite months of BLM people really aren't getting it! I'm not sure what can be done about that....

Because they want a diverse ballet school. Your post is misleading. You make out all the white people are taking places and the BAME are stuck on the waiting list - which is not true isn’t it as your last post says different. They are clearly reaching their mission target.

This obviously isn’t a BAME exclusive school. If you want one go and find one.

turnitonagain · 04/09/2020 08:09

I wanted to talk about the podcast!

I struggle with a lot of the issues it raises. We are a mixed family (one black parent one white) in a well off but somewhat diverse area. Many wealthy families (mainly white) choose private, which we could afford. The local schools as a result are higher % BAME than the area because of those who go private.

My DCs are visibly non white. Do I put them in the diverse school where they’ll be part of a community where they don’t stick out as minorities, even if the results aren’t as good? Or do we choose private or move to an area with better schools, which tend to be whiter areas?

Honestly I don’t know. It feels like for BAME families the choices are harder because we know minority children having a private school background can help them in how they’re viewed by society. Which is horrible. But true.

lottiegarbanzo · 04/09/2020 08:18

I don't want to re-think that and I'm not the least bit embarrassed CuriousaboutSamphire.

I've explained my reasoning in detail in that post and earlier on the thread already. The TL:DR is that people who are used to all doors being open to them have to be told 'no, not you' very clearly indeed, if they are to understand 'no'.

Incrediblytired · 04/09/2020 08:24

OP, I get you on some levels, you’ve listened to an interesting and intellectually challenging podcast and now you’re reflecting on your own circumstances and local demographic.

This is a good thing.

What you don’t seem to be doing is applying, or listening to, any sort of critical thinking to the podcast?

So when people present a counter argument you get huffy and perceive the environment to be hostile and unsafe.

I’m a “Nice White Parent” who has always had a social circle of BAME folk. My best mate is Indian and my daughters little mate is her daughter , who is Indian.

Shock horror, they both went to the same toddler ballet class!

(I’m not a “ballet mum” really, it just happened to be a local toddler group, won’t be sending her moving forward as I don’t like the body image stuff that goes hand in hand with ballet)

There are fine lines between promoting diversity, segregation and being accused of cultural appropriation. It’s a good thing to explore but sometimes as a white person I do feel I can’t do right for doing wrong...and I won’t apologise for being a “Nice White Parent”, I am what I am.

Starlightstarbright1 · 04/09/2020 08:41

i assume there are also white people on the waiting list.

I assume it is a good school if it has a waiting list hence whilst everyone wants to go there.

if the school itself whats to increase the numnber of BAME it needs to change its waiting list admission criteria.

My DS's best friend is none white and they don't tend to do any activities without each other so if my DS wasn't allowed to join his friends wouldn't either.

shepherdessbush · 04/09/2020 08:53

I would have no problem with a BAME specific ballet school that purposes to widen access and progress to (underrepresented) BAME children. That to me is very different to a school which "celebrates" BAME applicants. The onus is very much on the school to make their position clear. Parents, and particularly those who have no experience of structural racism, cannot be expected to read in between the lines.

OverTheRainbow88 · 04/09/2020 08:55

I do think minority groups need the opportunity to have access to resources and opportunities that would otherwise likely be out of reach for them and this is often achieved by specifically making room for them and making resources available only for them. Single sex education for example, or women in STEM. Likewise I have no problem with American HBCUs. No problem with Jewish School or Catholic School. No problem. I've also got no problem with a ballet company trying to address the discrimination in ballet by celebrating black students and aiming to increase participation of young black people. I think it's clearly a shame then when the proportion of black students falls - that is defeating their own objective. If you agree the aim was valid, even noble, it follows that you'd not want that outcome. I don't think they should have to say 'non-black not allowed'. In any case it is not lawful to do that and where it might be lawful it is tricky and then there is the sentiment that ouch, barring children of any background is just reprehensible. No one wants to do that. So I understand that white parents can freely apply for their white children to join. That is what led me to instead ponder the mind of the white parents who are doing just that.

We can say, of course, out of ten children there are 4 white - so what? A ha, well then what about the next white parent who thinks: it's close by, I really want MY kid to experience ballet with black kids and not just white middle class kids like us, and ohh the price is good, and I like what they are doing with the kids there? Well then it's 5/10. Then another white parent. And another, and another and suddenly its 8/10 white middle class. Then the black people are looking around scratching their heads and wondering why the school is called BAME Ballet School and the white parents are cheerfully not seeing or thinking there is a problem because they're colour blind or at least their kids are getting a more diverse experience than elsewhere. I mean I think BAME ballet school pretty much says it on the tin.

I'll repeat I would NOT send my kid to Asian Ballet School, or Jewish Athletics Club, or to an LGBT youth group, or one for foster children, or children with disabilities. Just wouldn't. I wouldn't need to problematise what 'celebrate' means, or what 'increase participation' meant, I would have long moved on, probably messaging my Asian/Jewish/LGBT etc friends to let them know these clubs exist. I don't think every corner of the world should be open to ME and MINE when I know also there is discrimination out there of which I am a beneficiary, though unwillingly.

A lot of the responses here are persuading me that perhaps some of those white parents either want to be centred or don't even see when they are moving themselves into the centre. Because they might generally feel safe, and/or they haven't felt discrimination or prejudice meaningfully and negatively impact their lives they don't see that people who do experience this pretty much every day of their lives might want a break from it for themselves and/or their kids.

@Sugarintheplum

Thank you OP, you’ve explained it so much better than I ever could. I feel the same, and hope others now have some level of understanding from your posts

unlimiteddilutingjuice · 04/09/2020 09:09

Hi Sugaritheplum!
I've not read the thread beyond the first page but I just wanted to come on and thank you for the recommendation. I'm binging on the podcast right now!
So fascinating. I see very similar patterns of behaviour in white middle class parents in the UK. But because of the funding structure in the US (particularly the disproprtionate influence of PTA funding) it seems much more extreme!
I love the jouranalist as well. She has a wonderful way of picking apart the dynamics of what could seem like boring meetings and paining a picture of everyones different perspectives and motivations.
I'm hooked!

NoSquirrels · 04/09/2020 09:19

If the school sees the demographic shift happening and wishes to make sure they remain BAME-focused, it’s pretty easy for them to change the mission statement and admission criteria to specify a proportion of places every year to BAME students.

I think OP your point about individual white people not recognising privilege - which is what it boils down to - and therefore being unknowingly complicit in perpetuating structural inequality is a valid one. But in this particular example it feels a bit like you’ve taken the (excellent) US podcast and applied it to an example that’s not quite right, because the white parents wouldn’t be the problem here, the school mission statement and admin would be.

SummerSummerSummertime · 04/09/2020 09:23

I dint really see how trying to segregate kids helps things OP.
Surely the aim should be for all ballet schools to encourage all kids from all backgrounds. Your original post wasn't clear about the point of the ballet school. That's why people are confused.

SummerSummerSummertime · 04/09/2020 09:26

Also, if the ballet school really wants to prioritise black kids, then they should reflect this priority in their admissions process. It's not really the fault if the parents is it??

Can I ask if you are in the UK op?

SummerSummerSummertime · 04/09/2020 09:29

Apologies for my Q op I can see from your earlier comments that you already said you are in England.

lottiegarbanzo · 04/09/2020 09:52

Thanks for the podcast recommendation OP. We're all snipping at your example but I for one haven't listened to the podcast and might do now.