Nice White Parents

[Sugarintheplum]

This podcast has been fascinating. Has anyone else been listening?

I've long seen that reflected in my life / kids lives. But what I am still lacking is an understanding of the thought process these parents go through.

For example, I used to send my children to a very diverse tap / ballet /drama class where I lived previously. It was very mixed ethnically. Lovely lovely place. Where I live now the classes are more expensive (the area is still very diverse), and the kids who attend these classes are more than likely white and middle class. I yearn for other kids who look like my kids to join for a myriad of reasons. There IS a ballet school in this part of town that has the stated mission to improve representation of ethnic minorities in ballet through the adult core to the school for children. There is a waiting list BUT STILL white parents send there kids there. This means ethnic minority children are waiting while white children take up the place. I see that and honestly wonder what the parents are thinking. And this is just a tiny example, but it happens in other aspects of life, too.

It needs to be explained to me because I'm truly lost!

Also, interesting use of capitals there... B and w

I fear we may have been goaded a little!

'Celebrates BAME students' sounds to me like they're trying to encourage BAME participation, NOT that the school is exclusively BAME.

The ballet school is accepting those white children. Perhaps they want diverse classes that are ethnicity-blind rather than just ethnic minority children. Is that ballet school cheaper or does it do more to attract a more diverse range of children? Why do you think there are more ethnic minority children there? Also, I have never lived anywhere in the UK where there has been a straight line relationship between financial status and ethnicity. You sounds affluent and well educated yourself - able to afford the ballet fees. Perhaps if this other school is cheaper it prioritises children who cannot afford the school your children attend. You won't find any answers here, but I am not sure it is your business to ask. If I ran a ballet school and someone berated me for accepting white children then I would probably provide a polite but no nonsense response and make sure they were never a parent at my ballet school. Life is hard enough without difficult judgemental parents who are more interested in identity politics than in ballet.

@Thisismytimetoshine Presumably it's first come first served?

That’s a presumption but if true why are the white families arriving first?

Are the classes advertised where predominantly white people will see them?

Is someone out with the school being unwelcoming? (Eg uniform shop it transport)
Is there a rival activity that attracts BAME participants running at the same time?

The issue is that if there was a diverse class and a white class, I'd want my child to go to the diverse class, because my child is white and I want her to grow up well.

There's research saying that having one black family move into a white street reduces racism in the area. Now that might not be fantastic for that one black family. Surely BLM also means we try to make sure our children are raised not to be racist. And that involves them having BAME friends and acquaintances. I worry that I was raised in a really diverse community and DD less so. That her life will be less because of that. Thankfully she seems to have a great group of friends and avoided the 'people like me' trap.

I do see the issue though. I had the same conundrum with a job at a local organisation that serves a specific (very poorly served) group of people, which I'm not part of. I'm an expert in the general field. I had long conversations with the Executive Director and a friend who works there. My worry was taking a job from a person from that group. Her take was, take the job, spend time and energy bringing up young people, training and mentoring them so there are people to do that job in future. Thereby increasing capacity.

I agree with someone who said "be careful what you wish for". In the US some schools have quotas for different races. I was on holiday in California once and it was in the news that an Asian child was denied a place at his local school because the school's quota of Asian kids was full. Do you really want this? His race was the entire reason for the decision to exclude him.

I don't really understand, OP.

I get your concern about BAME children potentially finding it difficult to access predominantly white spaces. My (mixed race) dd attends a dance school that is overwhelmingly white, and she does always stand out on stage because she looks different. Luckily, this doesn't bother her in the slightest, but I can see that it might be offputtimg to some.

However, I don't think the problem is with white parents choosing to send their kids to a dance school that aims to celebrate diversity in dance. Those parents probably support the school's aims and want their kids to dance in a diverse group.

The problem - if there is one, and I'm still not sure - is surely with the school which is choosing to accept those white children. If their mission is explicitly to create a space for BAME dancers, then why not do just that? Or perhaps that isn't their aim, and they just want to create an environment that proactively welcomes all?

Ultimately, if the dance school accepts white kids, I don't think you can blame white parents for sending their kids there. TBH, I would find it odd if they chose not to use a school on the basis of its ethnic diversity!

So you want a BAME only group, not a diverse group?

That’s a presumption but if true why are the white families arriving first? Huh? Nope! that went right over my head!

Advertising - in local spaces where everyone can see them and families book as and when they see it.

Not ALL white kids and then ALL BAME kids. A mix of all of them, some white kids towards the front some BAME kids towrds the front too.

I think you've taken OPS words too literally!

The OP @Sugarintheplum is ignoring some very sensible posters' comments - @Hardbackwriter in particular sets out clearly why this might have happened. I think the OP is either well intentioned but blinkered in what she wants to see/hear, or being deliberately inflammatory.

[quote Sugarintheplum]@PapaPoule

yes, could be that I'm not being clear. I'll bullet:

• There is a ballet school
• Ballet school's mission is to celebrate Black ballet dancers
• White parents send their white children there
• Black children languish on the waiting list

I wondered what might lead white parents to send their white children to said ballet school.[/quote]
how do you know how many and who exactly is on this waiting list?

To answer the question in your OP about why white parents would send their children to a school with a stated mission to celebrate BAME students: If the school was in the right location for me, with classes I could afford that were at the right times, I would chose it on that basis, and be happy that it was encouraging diversity (as I’m aware that ballet is a very white hobby/ occupation).

I’ll be honest, it wouldn’t occur to me that I’d be taking a place that a BAME child could/ should have taken - I’d assume that anyone who wants to join the class would do so, and that it would be first come, first served.

Ballet school's mission is to celebrate Black ballet dancers
White parents send their white children there
Black children languish on the waiting list
I’m not sure what you expect them to do if they had a space and allowed a white child to join, them a BAME child joined the waiting list afterwards? Are you expecting them to boot out a white child who is a current pupil, in order to give the space to a BAME child who has joined the waiting list at a later date? I don’t think that’s acceptable.

The entire adult troupe is BAME. The ballet school for children is mostly BAME at the moment but with increasing numbers of white children there

I wouldn’t call this an ethnically diverse ballet school if I saw only BAME people chosen for the adult troupe.

Maybe they are encouraging more white pupils because they see how it looks and to be ethnically diverse they need more white pupils.

I don’t get why you wouldn’t let your children do Asian dancing but you yourself did do it.

OP I'm black and your opening post and your bullet points are not clear.

"Celebrate" does not mean that white people are not welcome.

If the school is supposed to have a higher number of BAME children then it's up to the ballet school to engineer it so this happens e.g. telling parents to sign up their children for classes by a certain date then allocate places to them dependant on ethnic and cultural background.

I went to a comprehensive school in London with some slogan amongst others about celebrating diversity. The head actually admitted the school socially engineered places so for example if they had 30 white Christian pupils and the had a choice between a white Muslim and another white Christian pupil the white Muslim pupil would get the place. They then would socially engineer the ethnic and religious makeup of each form group.

I think sometimes it's because these white families want their children to mix with a diverse group -

This.

You claim not to be hostile but you sound hostile. Diversity means not excluding anyone

Because the wording of the school celebrates bame is the issue- it needs to be explicit in the meaning because it’s clear from this thread that it’s open to interpretation...

Why would I send my kids there?
It’s closest
It’s cheapest
It’s a great class
It’s got great ethos etc
Their school mates are there
We are a white family/ but family with bame also... so where are we meant to go?

If it was exclusively BAME it would have explicitly said so. I don't think it's legal to discriminate on race terms be they black or white, so I presume they're trying to encourage BAME participation. As they're over-subscribed, it's working well.

Actually this reminds me of something years ago that I'd long forgotten about. My dc was at a nursery which closed down so I had to find a new one. I'm white, he's mixed race. His previous nursery was diverse, white children, black children, mixed race children, Asian children...the staff were also from different ethnicities...every nursery I visited in the area was similar. However one nursery I visited had only black children and black staff members, no mixed race children or white children or staff..this stood out to me as unusual as it didn't reflect the diverse mix of the population. For clarity, a nursery in that area with only white children and white staff would have been equally unusual. The woman showed me round then told me there were no places. I asked her if she'd put me on the waiting list...she said she would but they never contacted me again. I don't think this sort of discrimination is beneficial for anyone. I think equality of opportunity is crucial.

In terms of my own dc I have never once felt like any extra curricular activities were off limits to my dc based on their skin colour.

I do understand that certain activities attract a certain demographic and those kind of subconscious barriers are important to break down.

I'm not quite sure in this case now whether "celebrate" is just some meaningless jargon, or if it is supposed to be some sort of dog-whistle; either to white people ("not for you") or black people ("for you"), I've no idea. What does it mean to "celebrate" BAME dancers ? Does it mean that the BAME dancers get treated more nicely in class ?

What does it mean to "celebrate" BAME dancers ? Does it mean that the BAME dancers get treated more nicely in class ?

It means that their talent is going to be fully appreciated as they are. They aren’t going to be compared to historical white archetypes and found lacking.

It's a PC way of encouraging BAME participation.

Lots of 'Celebrating diversity' all around my here parts.

@PlanDeRaccordement

But ballet is a ethnically and culturally a White form of dance. I’d expect more white kids participating because that is their culture. To have a goal of more non whites doing a white art form seems like pressure to assimilate and conform to me. The school would be better off approaching diversity by adding in other ethnicities cultures dance forms and letting people choose.

Wow. So what should BAME kids be doing then - just Bhangra and street dance? Surely if they're British, ballet is as much their 'culture' as football is? There are certainly BAME role models out there in ballet

It's really clear that most posters on this thread have decided to give us the 'benefit' of their opinion despite 1. Not really reading/understanding the OP, 2. Not having listened to the podcast on which this thread is based

Safe space? Its an anonymous Internet forum...

Just for clarity you are suggesting that the ballet school should discriminate against pupils because of their colour?
Or their parents colour?

Really!

So if they do not identify as BAME they should be lower down the waiting list??

Why don't the school run more classes? Why don't the parents with children on the wait list try a different school?

What about people on reduced income.... ? More ballet for poorer people in our are its income that's the main block on extracurricular

Personally I think whilst you can’t say only BAME people can attend or something is White’s only I do think there is a code.

If a company is stating that it is an ethnically diverse company then to me it means that they are looking for a BAME person so don’t waste your time applying if you are White.

There was a post on here where the poster was asked to tick the box on what gender they were when applying for a job.
It gave the impression that it really didn’t want straight people as Male/masculine and Female/feminine were omitted
People told the poster to not bother filling in the application form.

I hadn’t realised it had filtered down to children’s ballet.