Nice White Parents

[Sugarintheplum]

This podcast has been fascinating. Has anyone else been listening?

I've long seen that reflected in my life / kids lives. But what I am still lacking is an understanding of the thought process these parents go through.

For example, I used to send my children to a very diverse tap / ballet /drama class where I lived previously. It was very mixed ethnically. Lovely lovely place. Where I live now the classes are more expensive (the area is still very diverse), and the kids who attend these classes are more than likely white and middle class. I yearn for other kids who look like my kids to join for a myriad of reasons. There IS a ballet school in this part of town that has the stated mission to improve representation of ethnic minorities in ballet through the adult core to the school for children. There is a waiting list BUT STILL white parents send there kids there. This means ethnic minority children are waiting while white children take up the place. I see that and honestly wonder what the parents are thinking. And this is just a tiny example, but it happens in other aspects of life, too.

It needs to be explained to me because I'm truly lost!

This really seems like a ballet school issue, not something that white parents are supposed to magically know to police for themselves.

If the school is not exclusively BAME and accepts white kids, then why would a white parent think there was a problem with sending their white kid there? In fact, it may be viewed negatively if they deliberately avoided a class with a high percentage of BAME children.

As for the waiting list, again, it’s how the school chooses to manage it. First come first served, or prioritising BAME children (which doesn’t seem to be the case) or prioritising white children (which almost seems implied by the OP but unlikely given then schools goals). It’s likely first come first serve, and that’s the schools choice. I doubt all the white kids are at the top and the BAME are shoved to the bottom to “languish”. The school could choose to prioritise BAME kids if they felt that suited their goal. This really isn’t for the parents to manage. I expect lots of parents are choosing to send their children there because of its diversity and if the school accepts that, I can’t see how we can point the finger at the white parents for blocking places for BAME kids?

Maybe the white parents want their children to attend a diverse school not a middle class white enclave of a school.

I get your frustration OP. The parents intentions might be to be more inclusive but the effect is that they are taking up places that should be set aside for positive discrimination.

OP sorry if this has already been mentioned and addressed but, have you tried to put the shoe on the other foot and think of it from the perspective of a white parent?

If you had a ballet school local to you, and when looking on their website it said that they celebrate diversity, what kind of person would you typically have to be to be discouraged from sending your white child to that school because you knew (or assumed from the statement) that lots of other ethnicities would be in attendance?

No good parent would read that and choose not to send their child there. I can tell you that if I had a white friend who came to me and said, "there's a really good ballet school in my local area but I'm not going to send my white DC their because it celebrates diversity", I would not in any way take that as they were doing it for a positive reason. Most non racist white parents think the same I imagine, because in times such as these that we live in it feels doubly important to teach our dc that racial diversity is completely normal and the way things should be.

It is interesting that you said in one of your first posts that you felt that the term "celebrate" diversity is a particularly emotively strong and telling term. I don't know many people who feel that way in the modern world especially if they are working- diversity and inclusion seems to (rightly) be discussed frequently.

I suppose what it comes down to is that many white people understand diversity as being inclusive of non white people- as in, removing previously existing overt or covert societal barriers so that we live towards a society that has genuinely no racial discrimination. But if you view things saying they encourage diversity as that they encourage more minorities and no or much less white people specifically, then that is a different (and still not bad, if people find it genuinely helpful) thing.

I don't understand why you'd want to encourage segregation. Surely if BAME people want their kids to go there they do the same as the white people and put themselves on the waiting list

Okay so I've been doing some googling. If the school is something like Ballet Black, whose specific mission is to support black people into dance, then of course you're being completely reasonable in your disgruntlement. I would question though:

• Why the school is taking white students on at the expense of BAME people
• How you know that they are
• How you know the size=racial make-up of the the waiting list

I hope I don't come across as attacking. I am super supportive of BLM and all that that entails. I just want to understand more about the particular situation you are talking about

The OP doesn't say the school is about encouraging diversity, it is about encouraging ethnic minority representation in ballet.

Obviously if they encourage ethnic minority kids to do ballet it will ultimately make ballet more diverse but the school is specifically wanting to encourage ethnic minority kids so not the same as wanting the school to be diverse.

'There is a waiting list BUT STILL white parents send there kids there.'

Surely it's for everyone

Okay yes I missed that.

So why are the school taking white kids over non white kids and how does the OP know that is happening AND how does she know there is a waiting list of non white kids while white kids get places?

Because if it's true then that is a massive and very confusing issue, but I just don't see how anyone can know these facts unless they are working for them and in charge of admissions, which it doesn't sound like OP is

Sounds like there are plenty of BAME and white kids wanting to do ballet.

All the schools are accepting BAME applicants, I presume? So the issue would be a lack of schools rather than prejudice or no enthusiasm for ballet from BAME people?

So why are the school taking white kids over non white kids and how does the OP know that is happening AND how does she know there is a waiting list of non white kids while white kids get places? She doesn't. She is applying her own sense of correctness... the one that allowed her to go to an Asian dance class but would prevent her own kids from doing so. She has absolutely no idea if BAME kids are being passed over. She is just using emotive language to make a point!

She is objecting to white kids being allowed to enrol at all!

the effect is that they are taking up places that should be set aside for positive discrimination.

Maybe the ballet school doesn't believe positive discrimination is a fair policy, or the right way to achieve its goals. Maybe they actually do want a truly diverse membership.
It's not the OP's ballet school so their admissions policy isn't any of her business. I don't think I'd take it well being told what I should or should not be doing with my own company.

OP, there is a fair amount of sympathy regarding your desire that your children spend time with children who either look like them or who are, at least, not all 100% white in appearance. However, your opinions on how a private ballet school runs its own affairs are less well supported and I hope you can see why.

I wonder how many people go to the ballet or opera? I do. Only about twice a year as it is very expensive, but nevertheless, I have been doing so for decades. You might be interested to know that it has become more diverse over the years. And it is fiercely competitive. People are awarded parts based purely on ability. There is no attempt to make a female lead look like the people playing her parents. I have seen a black female lead with one Chinese and one white parent in a traditional Russian ballet. It is the same with opera - it is the voice that counts not the appearance. It is internationally competitive and only the very best reach the top. Clearly this requires opportunities in childhood, but the issue there is not one of skin colour but of affluence and of having parents willing and able to take the child to classes, which can be hard if the parent does minimum wage shift work. My local primary is very aware of this so all after school clubs are free. I don't know how they manage it, but they do. There is no ballet available locally, but there are sporty and creative options. It would be amazing to see more kids able to try more extracurricular activities and find the one that truly enthuses them. I do believe it would be enriching for society as a whole, but sadly I can't see it happening with the current financial situation. If I ever win the lottery I will set up a charity that focussed solely on giving disadvantaged children extracurricular opportunities. Slightly off-topic, but I hope it gives you a new perspective. Your children are blessed with engaged and affluent parents. Focus on the positives and don't fabricate grievances.

What you’re wanting isn’t true equality. It’s an advantage based solely on skin colour. That is not a healthy way to encourage more BAME participation. Anyway, OP has flounced off thread now she’s realised it’s not an echo chamber...

@monkeyonthetable

Maybe the white parents want their children to attend a diverse school not a middle class white enclave of a school.

I get your frustration OP. The parents intentions might be to be more inclusive but the effect is that they are taking up places that should be set aside for positive discrimination.

I really recommend the podcast the OP mentions.

The issues go beyond just numbers when white parents start sending their children to schools (or it could be extrapolated to ballet classes) that originally/previously were intended for/attended by predominantly BAME children. It examines the cultural and more explicitly the shift in power dynamic that occurs when this happens. Surprise surprise under the ethos of diversity and equality white children gain and BAME children are disadvantaged.

It’s uncomfortable listening but really explores well how (usually unconsciously) nice white parents shape and control resources for their children’s benefit and advantage.

The issues are far-reaching and complex but if I were part of the leadership team of this school I'd push to put on more classes (at a second site, if need be) to accommodate those on the waiting list. If the aim is to encourage BAME participation in ballet and there are BAME children on the waiting list, that would do it. More generally, is the school advertising its classes in a way that reaches BAME parents?

ScribblyGum I get that having space for children with something in common is important, with it is sex, think background or interest driven. This is exactly why many parents feel some disquiet about the way Girl Guides are running things at the moment. However we have to be careful not to lambast parents simply for being white. It creates a paradigm in which they are damned whatever they do. This isn't healthy and it isn't a route to a harmonious future. If the OP wants a BAME only group and the ballet group she wants to send her kids to is not like that then she should set it up herself and leave the ballet group to run things as they see fit.

Disadvantage comes in all colours shapes and sizes. In my teaching experience my schools have had much more financial support for managing that disadvantage when they can tick diversity boxes. There is a genuine desire to help lift disadvantaged BAME children out of poverty. There is absolutely no focus on traveller or gypsy kids or white working class kids from generations of deprivation in poor regions of the UK. They attract neither additional government funding nor charitable support. There is a lot of money for children who come from non-English language environments, but non for children whose parents are English speakers but illiterate so unable to support reading at home. People feel free to write them off as unworthy and speak about them in ways they would never speak about BAME children.

Apologies for typos. That first sentence should have read:

I get that having spaces for children with something in common is important, with it is sex, ethnic background or interest driven.

What I understand frm this - and from life - is that you want to keep privileged people out of something, you can't hint, hope or expect, you have to spell it out, clearly and unambigously, as a rule or direction, addressed directly to them.

People who are used to doing what they want, to having most options available to them, really need to have it spelled out to them, when a particular option is not available to them but is specifically provided for others.

They will be surprised, they will question it, a few will phone up and make a fuss. They (we, in many situations) are not used to being told 'no, not for you', or, to thinking in those terms about their or anybody's access.

Oops, that was 'if you want... in the first sentence.

But the ballet school doesn't want to keep 'privileged' people out (whatever constitutes privileged). And it's up to the owners.
I think it's wrong to tell anyone, but especially children, that some opportunities are not for them based on their skin colour.
You can't have it both ways - you can't say that discrimination in life is wrong and then want to practise it to suit yourself. Especially when it involves someone else's business.

I was making a general point because it is competely unclear from the thread, what the ballet school's own aims and criteria are.

My point is just that, if it would prefer to attract a particular subset of the wider population as pupils, it would need to state this directly, not rely on the power of mission statements to make prospective parents think.

People generally think about themselves and what is convenient to themselves. Further, people who are not used to being told 'no, not for you' or having this implied in hurtful and uncomfortable ways, are particularly bad at looking beyond the end of their own noses.

So, my response to OP, is that the 'white parents' she refers to in this case, are not looking for barriers, or for issues to think about. They're thinking about what suits them.

I think the ballet school knows what it is doing and what it's aims are - it seems like a successful business, since it is in demand. The OP is just pissed off because her priorities aren't theirs. I don't think it's the responsibility of white parents to deny their children access to something which has been freely offered to them.

What I understand frm this - and from life - is that you want to keep privileged people out of something, you can't hint, hope or expect, you have to spell it out, clearly and unambigously, as a rule or direction, addressed directly to them

But what constitutes privilege?

Being white?

As Genevieva says there is financial support for BAME children to drag them out of poverty but none for white children living in poverty
Doesn’t that make you disadvantaged if you were born to poor white parents and privileged if you were from a poor BAME household as you would get more opportunities.

There are lots of sorts of privilege, different ones relevant to different situations. My point isn't about that, it is about the need for clear communication.

OP seems to be suggesting that 'white parents' ought to see things from her point of view, start from the same knowledge base she has, so make their choices accordingly. I'm just saying that, regardless of whether or not they should, or the ballet school would like them to (irrelevant, as we don't know enough to form a view on that), they won't. They are not her, do not share her knowledge, opinions or perspectives. So, saying 'but I'm right and other knowledgeable people agree with me' will not get her very far, with people who haven't even begun to think about things from her perspective.

I'm making the point that generally, people live in their own little bubbles and can be very thick-skinned. There's no point hinting.