Child repeating and repeating until I snap

[Blutterflies]

Exactly that really. I don’t know how to stop this behaviour and this morning I cried, in front of her because I don’t know how to stop it and it can go on for hours.
Background- she is number 2 of 4. Number 1 grown up, other two younger but within a few years difference. She is 8 years old.
She can be very well behaved but has ‘moments’ where I feel helpless.
So, children misbehaving for dp at bedtime last night, getting out of bed (3 separate bedrooms) keep going to toilet etc he says that if they fail to stay in bed and go to sleep he will not be making pancakes for them today. They carried on, eventually went to bed. All asleep by 8.30 so not horrendous but later than expected.
This morning child in question asking for pancakes. I explained why they weren’t having them. Other two children fine, she carried on “mummy?” “Yes?” “Can we have pancakes” “no, the answer is no and you’ve been told why” “mummy?” “Yes?”.............
“Mummy?”
“Mummy?”
“Mummy” I am ignoring by this point and have explained to her that I am not going to answer this same question.
We do spelling and reading in the morning so I try to distract with that, refusal. I write a note in her books to say she has refused (I have been questioned by teachers before about her reading, homework, spellings that she refuses to do) she does not like that at all.
Child follows me round the house crying, pulling at my clothes still Mummy, Mummy, mummy.
I try and ignore her, deal with others, praise them for how sensible and well behaved they’ve been (which they have) this enraged angry child even more. She then starts calling sister stupid. All the while still doing the mummy mummy business and grabbing me.
I lose my fucking shit. Grab her by both arms, scream in her face “you are not having pancakes, not now, not later. Stop grabbing me”
Child stares blankly, “Mummy?”

God, it's a kind of torture isn't it? I'd say the naughty step or similar idea (every time she does it taking her back to sit on it) might work but not sure if she's a bit old at 8. It's difficult with the grabbing too - you could ignore the 'Mummy' (well, outwardly at least) but it's harder when there's a physical aspect. Does she do it with your DP? Or just you?

Sorry posted too soon

This was the point where I cried.
Because she’s worn me down, because I can’t stop her from going on and on and on. Because I can’t walk away, because the others are being so good and having to have an hour of this before school.

This is not an isolated incident. This happens probably every fortnight where something happens that she doesn’t like and she will go on and on and on. She has never been given what she wants in this situation but has broken me before. Once I locked her in the garden (with coat on, can see through window) because I was scared I was going to hit something or her and I needed some spaces for two minutes. She then began to kick the door in, with all her might and hang off the door handle.
I said she could come in once quiet. She kept on and on I went out to calm her down and explained that she was scaring the others and making us all sad. She pushed me in the stomach (pregnant) and again I was defeated. Crying and beside myself. It shocked her into stopping but she was still hideous to be around.

I understand you are overwhelmed and find it too much but that's just a typical 8 years old behaviour. With 3 kids in the morning, it can be a handful and I understand how hard it must be for you. But screaming in the face of an 8 years old and locking her in the garden is a step too far. I don't know what the solution is so I hope this bumps up your post and someone else can give you a bit more useful advice.

Yes @DesLynamsMoustache it feels like pure torture and I have no clue how to stop. I can’t give in, I can’t bargain with her, I can’t keep crying.
She will specifically go for me with this tactic and usually whilst I’m alone. She has done with so before with same results. Him shouting and getting very rough with her to get her to stop. And by rough I don’t mean violent I mean peeling her off him, plonking her on a bed/sofa and walking away.
How can you ignore behaviour like that? You can’t. And everyone has to focus on her because she’s making such a scene.
It is attention seeking but how can I not give it attention?? She has done stuff like tip the contents of my handbag on the floor if I do not engage.
I genuinely don’t want to be around her when she’s like this. Then comes the guilt..... rinse and repeat

How is she at school? Does she have friends? Does she only behave like this with you? She’s trying to dominate you for some reason, attention seeking to that extent is very concerning.

I’d seriously consider getting a referral for an assessment with a child psychologist. See your GP.

But screaming in the face of an 8 years old and locking her in the garden is a step too far. I don't know what the solution is so I hope this bumps up your post and someone else can give you a bit more useful advice.

^^ op I think removing the child before you snapped is the sensible option. I've stepped out the house before and has to put a door or wall between us. Taking those few seconds to compose yourself can make all the difference x

I know it sounds brutal to lock her out but I have no clue how to escape it and I have felt like it’s been do that or end up going to the point of no return. She’s in her own back garden, safe and warm, she has been given fair warning that this is happening. I am not trying to justify this as a method of punishment but it was all I could do to get an element of separation between us so I could breathe for two minutes. There are windows all over our kitchen so she can see us and me her.

Tell her if she repeats the same question unreasonably when you’ve already given a clear answer, then you take some kind of privilege away.

Cross post @goldenorbspider

How old are the other two? Have you tried love bombing?.

She doesn’t care about things being taken away, not being allowed to do things. At all. She will tip reward charts off the wall if she doesn’t get a sticker for not doing one of the things she’s been asked to I.e putting her plate in the sink. Not cleaning the whole kitchen!!
It sounds as I write this as if she’s a child from hell, spoilt and Ferrell but like I said this only happens every now and then. And when she’s good she’s so good, compliant, understanding, emotionally stable. She’s intelligent, has friends, attends clubs etc. But when she blows, she blows and it’s the worst ever.

Just one one thing. Why is she going to bed so early? Asleep by 8.30 means she went to bed with the younger ones doesn't it?

Maybe send the younger ones to bed and her half an hour later. Let her have some attention for just her off your own back without her seeking it?

She hates love bombing because she knows I’m being disingenuous. I make sure they know they’re loved regularly as it was something I missed out on as a child, so it’s important to me. Physical contact and feeling loved. I also know I am not soft with them or over the top with it. Eg telling them I love them all the time, expecting them to tell me.

She goes to bed with them because the others are 5 and 6. If I said she could stay up the others would want to stay up too and then I’d have to do a three twirled, staggered bedtime where nobody was going to sleep anyway because they were too busy nosing in what the other/s we’re doing downstairs. And how much later that half eight should an 8yo be staying up??
God I’m such a negative nancy aren’t I?

A technique I have found really helpful with my 8 year old son is to be really specific about the ignoring. (Disclaimer - he has ADHD and some other issues. This technique was given to us by CAMHS but it works well on my younger neurotypical son as well.)

So if there is unacceptable behaviour (the grabbing, repeated questioning, rudeness etc), I say "DS, your [specific] behaviour is unacceptable. That means I am going to ignore you for 3 minutes. That means I am not going to talk to you or look at you for 3 minutes". Then ignore ignore ignore ignore ignore.

Once three minutes has passed, return to the child and praise him/her for doing something good: eg "DS, I can see you have kept your hands to your self/are reading a book/ are sitting at the table..." - anything, so long as it is positive. if you think this has reset the situation, then continue as usual. "Mummy will stop ignoring you now." Otherwise repeat. It's rare these days that we get to a 3rd set.

Have you tried mirroring her? For instance:
Her: Mummy?
You: Jane? (I dunno her name)
Her: Mummy?
You: Jane?
Her: Can I have pancakes?
You: No you can’t have pancakes.
Her: Mummy?
You: Jane?

You get my drift. Might not work in her case but worth a try.

Thank you. I haven’t tried timing the ignoring will maybe give this a go. Will give me something to focus on too.

She sounds quite old to still be continuing this behaviour (assuming no SEN). My 3 year old is very much in this stage but will usually stop when I say that I won't be repeating myself over and over. I would assume that your DD is doing it for power/control, you've snapped so she knows that it annoys you. When you feel yourself getting irate remove yourself from the situation, few minutes in the bathroom or similar, then return very calmly. She'll probably get bored when she no longer gets any gain from doing it and stop.

She goes to bed with them because the others are 5 and 6. If I said she could stay up the others would want to stay up too

So what, she's older and therefore gets to go to bed later and when they are her age they'll get to stay up until 8.30 as well. All mine had a 8.30 bedtime at that age.

Personally I'd choose the battle where my current oldest got a bit more privilege than the younger 2 than the one you're fighting now where she wants your sole attention. It's then on your terms and might be enough.

She wants her mother and you respond with irritation and locking her in the garden. It's not her fault she has siblings.

Another good suggestion with the mirroring. It’s hard not to enrage her with things like that. It’s like kicking a bears cage.
She’ll be fine today after school, dp has her anyway so good luck to him if she comes out asking for pancakes!!!!

I just hate feeling like I am not in charge and I think she knows this. She knows she can break me and she knows she’s then won (whether or not she gets what she wants) I think she feels like I’ve punished her by saying no so she can punish me by emotionally wearing me down.

Personally I think the mirroring is a terrible technique. She’s a child who is not coping with something.

If someone did that to me I’d be furious. How does it help other than to make it tit for tat?

Your posts are so much about how you feel. You are using an adult understanding with a child. I echo what gamerwidow said.
Why can't the youngest go to bed early and you can get some 1-1 time with her in the evening to chill out. Do you spend any 1-1 time with her on her own away from the home? She wants your attention and probably doesn't know how to get it. Probably doesn't understand how to manage her emotions so the only way she does it is to wound you up. You need to take a step back and see the bigger picture. The bigger picture is both you and your partner appear to shout and scream at her a lot. Must be very confusing for an 8 years old.

All children asleep by 8.30 sounds brilliant to me!
My 8 year old goes to bed 30 min later than her 5 year old brother as she genuinely isnt tired at 8. She will go up at 8.30 and is allowed to read in bed to relax and wind down for 10/15 mins.

Maybe im lax but I wouldnt punish them with no pancakes for getting out of bed a few times? It must have only been what 30 min of messing? Its totally normal behaviour. Pick your battles 😬

I would let her stay up an extra 30 mins and spend that time reading/doing something specifically with her - even watching tv.
It sounds like she’s picking up your negative feelings towards her. Maybe she needs a bit of one on one attention? Explain to her that if she misbehaves she will go to bed at 8.30.
The repeating thing can also be a sign of anxiety, my ds is like this but it was much worse when he was younger he’d repeat everything over and over almost like it comforted him to hear the answer even though he already knew it. He’s a teen now but he still asks the same things several times if it’s something he’s anxious about.