Child repeating and repeating until I snap

[Blutterflies]

Exactly that really. I don’t know how to stop this behaviour and this morning I cried, in front of her because I don’t know how to stop it and it can go on for hours.
Background- she is number 2 of 4. Number 1 grown up, other two younger but within a few years difference. She is 8 years old.
She can be very well behaved but has ‘moments’ where I feel helpless.
So, children misbehaving for dp at bedtime last night, getting out of bed (3 separate bedrooms) keep going to toilet etc he says that if they fail to stay in bed and go to sleep he will not be making pancakes for them today. They carried on, eventually went to bed. All asleep by 8.30 so not horrendous but later than expected.
This morning child in question asking for pancakes. I explained why they weren’t having them. Other two children fine, she carried on “mummy?” “Yes?” “Can we have pancakes” “no, the answer is no and you’ve been told why” “mummy?” “Yes?”.............
“Mummy?”
“Mummy?”
“Mummy” I am ignoring by this point and have explained to her that I am not going to answer this same question.
We do spelling and reading in the morning so I try to distract with that, refusal. I write a note in her books to say she has refused (I have been questioned by teachers before about her reading, homework, spellings that she refuses to do) she does not like that at all.
Child follows me round the house crying, pulling at my clothes still Mummy, Mummy, mummy.
I try and ignore her, deal with others, praise them for how sensible and well behaved they’ve been (which they have) this enraged angry child even more. She then starts calling sister stupid. All the while still doing the mummy mummy business and grabbing me.
I lose my fucking shit. Grab her by both arms, scream in her face “you are not having pancakes, not now, not later. Stop grabbing me”
Child stares blankly, “Mummy?”

Can you put her in a room by herself for a bit when she gets like that, so you both can have a bit of a break?

I used to do that with my eldest and if she kept coming out I’d put her right back and shut the door.

Usually she’d stay in the room and find something to play with and calm down pretty quickly.

It sounds like she’s seeking attention and you are resisting giving that attention as her behaviour is “attention seeking’. I find that when me and my son get into this place we just end up in a battle. My son does this constant religion as a way of engaging me. If resisting her isn’t working what happens if you engage her? Maybe when you are both calm do something together just the two of you and as part of that talk to her about what happens and how it isn’t nice for either of you. At 8 she may be able to say how she feels about it and why she does it. Maybe come up together with a strategy for when she is doing it and you need to do other things so it diffuses rather than escalates(using humour if possible). Good luck. When my son was younger it drove me mad.

Hmm I have an 8 year old. This is genuinely not normal 8 year old behaviour if he and his friends (and chats with other mothers) are anything to go by. My 8 year old has his head in the clouds a bit but I haven’t had to really tell him off or actually punish him in any way. I can’t imagine him following me around clinging to me and crying constantly.
It sounds like a coping mechanism or some kind of regression where she is behaving like a MUCH younger child. It’s the bit where you got cross with her and shouted and she didn’t seem to process it that makes me concerned that there is more going on. And the love bombing thing. My 8 year old has a much younger sibling so every so often we do something for him (he and I have shared interest so that makes it easier) and while I guess it’s a form of love bombing- he gets to choose what we do for the day, he adores it. I cannot imagine why he would see that as manipulative.
Have there ever been any other behavioural concerns?

I don’t think this is the case. @gamerchick we have plenty of opportunity to spend 1 to 1 time together especially on the weekend where one to one with all the children is paramount. She doesn’t want her mother, she wants pancakes and she wants her way. She’s not getting that and is acting out in a way which forces me to either do what she wants (not happening) or suffer.
I just want a strategy to deal with it. I believe that she is too old to behave like this but myself and the school are pretty confident she has no SEN as she is fine most of the time. I think she is just very driven and determined and will stop at nothing to get what she wants. She is the same in sports which is a good thing. Not so much in the home. I don’t want to break her, harm her, emotionally damage her. Just to have a tantrum for 10 minutes like most kids and move on.

I also think the punishment of no pancakes on pancake day is very OTT for children getting out of bed a few times - it can't have been bad as they were all asleep by half eight. I think you need to step back OP, this little girl is only eight, excited about pancake day and you've taken that away from her for no real reason. I think you feel like you're fighting a battle all the time because you're expecting way too much from a very young child.

You also sound like you don't like her very much.

Have you tried metacognition? Step aside and comment on what is going on as if you are on a wildlife programme.

‘ it’s so interesting how you are finding it hard to accept this decision, made based on your previous behaviour. I wonder what is going on? You’re very clever so you do understand consequences. You must be feeling a bit sad though as you were looking forward to those pancakes. Blah blah blah...’

Just to have a tantrum for ten minutes like most kids and move on

She doesn’t understand how to move on though, that’s the problem. You’re just telling her how she feels doesn’t matter, she just needs to cope with it herself.

The strategy for dealing with it is to see what’s happening for her, and address that. Not give her the things she wants but help her to understand why you’re not prepared to let her have them. At the moment she’s just making you feel as bad as she does.

She goes to bed with them because the others are 5 and 6. If I said she could stay up the others would want to stay up too

So actually your 5 and 6 year olds are not the good children you make them out to be either. Your 8 year old is forced into going to bed with them because you feel that the others would want to stay up

Then your DP who couldnt handle it decided on a no pancake punishment (which personally I think was way over the top) which led you to this morning incident.

I think you need to properly look at parenting strategies because I dont think you are in charge of any of them

Have you tried something like this?
Child asks question again
You - Have you asked me that before?
Child - Yes
What was my answer then?
Child - You said No.
You - That's correct and my answer will not change. Stop asking me that question because you know the answer already.
Child asks question again
You - You already told me that you know the answer, I'm not going to change it, stop asking.
Child asks question again
You - Why ask me, you already know the answer, what is the answer? Child - You said No.
That's correct, don't ask again.

If it goes on any longer than that, explain she's wasting your time and her time by asking questions she already knows the answer to and you will not respond to the same question being asked any more.

I don’t want to break her, harm her, emotionally damage her. Just to have a tantrum for 10 minutes like most kids and move on.

But I think in wanting her to be like others and not parenting the child you have you are doing that.

There is plenty you could be doing to change how you interact with her and your punishments and anger towards her. You sound like you dont like her or the person she is. She must know that.

It's tough isn't it, op, I can understand why you locked her in the garden.

I threaten sometimes to throw my DS in the snow and lock him outside when he misbehaves!

You also sound like you don't like her very much
Yep and she's going to feel it as well. She won't be able to articulate that until she's older though.

OP you're putting adult manipulations into an 8 yr old. She isn't doing it on purpose to control you. She's trying to fulfil a need she can't articulate.

I still can't understand why you're putting them all to bed together. I'd let her have some privileges the others don't. But it's your choice.

Just stop locking her out the house. You wouldn't like it.

I showed my children to come over and hold my hand if they want something, rather than repeating it.

Say no and draw a picture of no pancakes. She might need a visual picture of what you are saying.

Have you considered getting her assessed for aspergers or autism?
If she does not have it then you can rule that out and can ask for help with her behaviour. It could be so many things, anxiety, a hearing issue, anything. You need to check every avenue before you call it just boldness.

One more thing, if you feel like you want to scream, just sing. Sing as loud as you can, and direct your voice that way, others may think you are stone mad but it is better than shouting. You will be like Maria Von Trapp. sing!!!

Good luck.

You sound quite punitive and "no means no" about everything, rather than actually stopping to think about how she's feeling or what she's trying to communicate. No pancakes because of mucking about 12 hours earlier seems pretty over the top.

It sounds like she's trying to connect with you when she's upset, but doesn't know how to get through to you - why can't you acknowledge her feelings, rather than ignoring her, shutting her in the garden or shouting in her face? What I find weird from your OP is that you don't seem to have any sense that maybe you're not handling it as well as you could, as the adult - it's all just about how to make her stop.

Please have a think about these interactions - it's really worth having a look at something like Aha parenting online, or the book "How to talk so kids will listen". They give invaluable advice on how to deal with children in a way that's more emotionally tuned in and kind, rather than punitive. You can still have boundaries, obv!

Is there anyway of accessing parenting support once you no longer have a HV?

Sounds like you could do with some help identifying techniques to deal with her behaviour because your approach clearly isn't working at the moment (and whilst i understand needing space before you snap, why couldn't you have gone out into the garden? Sorry but locking a child out of their home as punishment is awful).

It particularly struck me that you said she doesn't like love-bombing because she knows you're being disingenuous. I think that's something you need to think about OP - why on Earth is it disingenuous? And how has it gotten to the point where your daughter knows such a show of love from you can't be genuine? That's very sad.

Ok. Maybe no pancakes on pancake day was a bit harsh but they were driving dp nuts and had been warned, and chose to continue. It was more than just getting up a few times. It was becoming a game where they would sneak into each other’s rooms etc. But yes, maybe a bit OTT.
And no, she doesn’t know how to move on and I don’t know how to help her to do so. I have tried many strategies including explaining the situation, seeing from her point of view, being sympathetic, ignoring
I love my children but I didn’t like the situation this morning and neither did my daughter. We probably both feel extremely negative about the situation this morning. This doesn’t mean I don’t like her. I’m just upset with how things turned out and feel stuck as I don’t have another way.
Parenting is so hard as there’s so many approaches and some things may be deemed as reasonable and the same situation deemed as cruel.

How is she at school?

When my older two were much younger. They had a very early bedtime, as we needed to be out of the house very early. So I’d put them to bed around the same time yours go to bed.

I’d hear them ‘quietly’ giggling and thundering tiptoeing into eachothers rooms.

I’d usually give them a half hour or so to mess around, then go upstairs to use the bathroom or litter for a bit. Of course they’d race into their own rooms before I got upstairs. I’d look in on them & kiss them.

When I’d go back downstairs they’d be sleeping.

We were talking about it recently and they were shocked I was aware of them playing. They thought all these years later I had no idea.

It was a fun thing for them, and they played ‘quietly’ for a bit before going to sleep. I never thought it was worth fighting them over. And they remember it fondly.

Potter not litter 🤦🏻‍♀️

Are you currently pregnant? Take her out of the home environment and spend time alone with her. Start small and slow. Don't wait till teenage years start and you have completely lost her. Stop praising the others in her face to wind her up more. Try reading more on positive parenting.

Blutterflies that’s a really brave thing to type, I think you’re using ‘strategies’ because you don’t trust yourself. You say you didn’t get much love from your parents, that’s very hard to overcome. Sometimes our children remind us of ourselves at that age.

I think you can make some changes if you think about it.

Following with interest OP. I'm having similar problems with my own DD, who is also 8, but she behaves like this EVERY DAY rather than every fortnight. We have our first CAMHs meeting this Friday. My anxiety is through the roof and my husband and I are at our wits end because of it. We love our daughter dearly, but we desperately need strategies to deal with her as her behaviour is soul destroying and I don't want her childhood memories to be of us shouting and being angry. She's fine in school, but won't do a thing she's told at home. She constantly shouts and screams, hits, kicks and throws. She's rude, demanding and incredibly anxious.. She is terrified of being on her own and won't sleep through the night without coming into our bed. She is creative, energetic and can be an incredibly loving girl, but she is also angry and I'm worried sick. I went to her school for help last year, and they couldn't believe what we were describing. I then took her to the GP and she referred us to CAMHS straight away. We've tried time out, shouting, screaming, putting her in her room etc and I've read soooo many parenting books, but nothing seems to work.

All 3 kids sleeping by 8.30 and one of them is 8. That is pretty good going.

I wouldn't ignore her, I would say "stop, right now" everytime she repeats herself.
Infact if I'm honest, I would probably do it back to her to let her see how irritating it is. So everytime she says 'mummy' just say her name, not as though you are answering her, as though you are about to ask her a question. Or I would just tell her to go and sit in a different room until she can behave. She clearly enjoys winding you up, remove her sfrom the situation so she can't wind you up.

There is no point in being patient, patient, patient and ignoring the behaviour and then blowing up to the point of locking her in the garden. Was that incident when you were pregnant with your youngest?