Child repeating and repeating until I snap

[Blutterflies]

Exactly that really. I don’t know how to stop this behaviour and this morning I cried, in front of her because I don’t know how to stop it and it can go on for hours.
Background- she is number 2 of 4. Number 1 grown up, other two younger but within a few years difference. She is 8 years old.
She can be very well behaved but has ‘moments’ where I feel helpless.
So, children misbehaving for dp at bedtime last night, getting out of bed (3 separate bedrooms) keep going to toilet etc he says that if they fail to stay in bed and go to sleep he will not be making pancakes for them today. They carried on, eventually went to bed. All asleep by 8.30 so not horrendous but later than expected.
This morning child in question asking for pancakes. I explained why they weren’t having them. Other two children fine, she carried on “mummy?” “Yes?” “Can we have pancakes” “no, the answer is no and you’ve been told why” “mummy?” “Yes?”.............
“Mummy?”
“Mummy?”
“Mummy” I am ignoring by this point and have explained to her that I am not going to answer this same question.
We do spelling and reading in the morning so I try to distract with that, refusal. I write a note in her books to say she has refused (I have been questioned by teachers before about her reading, homework, spellings that she refuses to do) she does not like that at all.
Child follows me round the house crying, pulling at my clothes still Mummy, Mummy, mummy.
I try and ignore her, deal with others, praise them for how sensible and well behaved they’ve been (which they have) this enraged angry child even more. She then starts calling sister stupid. All the while still doing the mummy mummy business and grabbing me.
I lose my fucking shit. Grab her by both arms, scream in her face “you are not having pancakes, not now, not later. Stop grabbing me”
Child stares blankly, “Mummy?”

Your daughter said that Blutterflies?

I’m really worried by what you say about your mother. Are you still in touch with her?

Are your other children boys?

Yes I am in touch with my mother but I have strict rules and boundaries with her which she follows because otherwise she’d be unable to see the grandchildren.

I have one boy. He’s the youngest.

My child is/was also like that - I would physically carry him to his room and he would fight me all the way and then immediately try to escape and/or throw things at me. Have you had any training in restraint holds? It definitely helped me get him into a controllable state. That, and the fact the he knows I will be back within a specified short time looking for something to praise.

He also has an anxiety disorder with ODD traits. When I tell people the things he has done they are aghast. Medication and behavioural therapies have helped a lot. That said, the therapies had no impact until we started meds for the ADHD.

You are not a bad mother.

But how is she so “normal” the rest of the time? This is what I don’t get, if there was a problem or issue it would be like that the whole time. Every time I said no would be a kick off, every refusal would be drama but it isn’t. It’s just sometimes. Probably once a fortnight for a mini tantrum and once a month maybe less for a biggie. The shutting in the garden episode was just after Christmas so that’s the time frame we’re dealing with. It’s not after certain events, situations it just happens sometimes. She just switches.
She’s always been the same. I remember when she was two and we had family round, she was doing the wee dance and I said “why don’t you go and try for a wee? I’ll take you upstairs” she refused and refused and refused to come upstairs. She just stood there and wet herself in front of everyone just staring at me indignant. I just put it down to stubbornness and strong will when she was that age.
I will obviously push to have her assessed as her behaviour can be so extreme sometimes.
She’s so mature as well which makes me think she knows exactly what she’s doing, ffs, she even told me she knows exactly what she’s doing.
She is been fine tonight dp managed to distract her from her funk by letting her cook dinner. She has had her special time where we just looked at some books and had a quiet chat. She’s still awake now but is quiet in her room so I’ll leave her (usually I’d try and get her to go to sleep) she’ll be knackered tomorrow but I need to pick the battles I think.

I’m so confused.

I feel like a terrible mother because there are so many schools of thought on how to parent and each clash and cancel each other out. It’s easy for people to say follow your instinct, do what feels right etc but like I said I have had to learn, from books, watching others and research how to be a good parent, what is acceptable, what isn’t, what is damaging, what isn’t.
And now I feel like I’ve got it all wrong and my child has ASD/ADHD which has gone unnoticed or is either being abused or a sociopath or I’m just so shit I don’t know my ass from my elbow and have ruined her completely with my terrible parenting.

It sounds very challenging and I can understand why you feel at your wits end. You follow through with consequences and I'd do exactly the same. I think you've done the right thing by talking about it post tantrum.

I think another chat in a few days
It's ok for her to have strong feelings but it's totally unacceptable to hit out or throw things. At eight she can clearly understand this. It's almost like she is telling you what YOUR consequence is for not complying with her wishes. As much as this determination is good for her sport, it's destructive when she doesn't get her own way.

The pester power is really pushing your buttons. I think any plan for you to react in a different way would make you feel better. I would answer the question three times. #1 please stop asking the same question. We have talked about this and we will not change our mind X still stands. #2 please stop asking the same question. #3 please stop. We will not talk about pancakes again tonight. And then I'd ignore the pester related question but talk about other things.

My nephew is king of pestering. He knows our house our rules and we don't give in. No screens before 10am means it will never happen.

I'd log when it happens so you can sense a pattern. It sounds like her sense of fair play is very well developed and the pester was because the punishment didn't fit the crime in her eyes? Maybe you could use this to devise standard sanctions with your other half?

She isn't completely ruined. . She is generally well behaved with blips every few weeks. It's annoying but she doesn't sound terrible and neither do you.

Pestering is really annoying to me because we've worked hard to establish rules. I'm in charge not the DC.

Thank you, needed a reality check
I think you are right. I am pleased we have managed to speak this time and I now know I have some time before I have to deal with this again. In the meantime I will try and change my approach in general and hope that the new bedtime makes her feel better.

I don’t think it’s unusual for a child to have moments where they react. Even if it is infrequently. The only thing I’d look at is delaying punishment as it happened with the pancakes.

Oh don’t listen to me, I thought my husband wasn’t straight when I first met him so what do I know 😂

She’s not broken and you’re doing the best you can for her. That’s why you’re her Mum 🙂

What you do at the time is up to you, it may not be punishment so I don’t mean you have to do that, I’ve never done a naughty step anyway.

OP I really feel for you, this sounds so difficult and you are so clearly trying to understand and help her. I immediately thought PDA when I read this, here's a link.
www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/pda.aspx
I'm no expert but maybe worth a look.

Butterflies in the kindest possible way - you need to chill out a bit. You sound very anxious yourself. Maybe she just has a very bad temper and is extremely stubborn! Everyone’s different.
I think you are maybe over-analysing things, you sound like a great mum but you are maybe reading too much into her temper tantrums. it’s good that you’ve decided to spend a bit of extra time with her of an evening. I have 4 dc’s and they are honestly all completely different personalities. I just get the feeling you are maybe too invested in working out what “the problem” is and to try to find the answer. Maybe she just enjoys winding you up and you take the bait?
But you should stop beating yourself up (probably stems from your own relationship with your dm?) I don’t think her behaviour sounds particularly abnormal, she just sounds like she’s very strong-willed. I know it must be very trying but I don’t think there’s anything “wrong” with her.

DS can be lovely too. Calm, sweet, articulate and thoughtful. And he can be rude, aggressive and violent. Things that trigger him one day are fine the next. I tied myself up in knots running to experts and reading books, beating myself for being such an awful mother who shouted and was full of despair. People would say ‘oh he’s just a boy’ and I wondered if most boys pulled doors off hinges in a red mist rage.

Definitely see if she can be assessed and do try the active ignoring technique. I find though that trying to reason or rationalise with my son when he has gone into the ‘red zone’ as we call it, is pointless. Nothing gets through to him then. We also don’t use time out as a punishment, but rather as time to calm down and regroup. Sometimes Mummy has time out too.

My middle dc can be very strong-willed. It has its upsides most of the time, he’s motivated to get stuff done. But infrequently he’ll flip out. It’s just his personality. I feel like I understand what makes him tick so it’s not insurmountable. Other dc are different and respond differently. This may be the case for your dd.

I've just read your op again. The mummy and nagging wouldn't bother me and would be easy to ignore. I HATE to be grabbed, that would push my buttons. One of my DBs has poor impulse control and interrupts all the fecking time. When I ignore him he will grab my arm (or try to). He is too old for that shit and is told so.

Your dd is generally well behaved. You need a coping mechanism for the pestering. This is your dd stress outlet so will happen again.

It's interesting that she talks about an 'angry zone'. I was coming on to recommend an emotional regulation program called 'the zones of regulation'. It helps children to understand their different feelings and emotions and employ strategies to help them manage them.

I think when a child has no fear of consequences or no inclination to follow any kind of instructions they won’t do anything they’re asked.

My DS could get into a state where he simply wasn't aware of consequences any more. Explosive Child is partly about helping your child stay calm enough so they don't get into that state. Which doesn't always work, sometimes nothing works and all you can do is batten down the hatches, try to keep everyone safe and ride out the storm!

I feel like a terrible mother because there are so many schools of thought on how to parent and each clash and cancel each other out.

That doesn't make you a terrible Mum at all. I ended up using a mixture. I did some conventional positive parenting, with time outs and rewards (punishments were much less effective); some Explosive Child; and some autism-specific (my DS does have an ASC). I even picked up one really good strategy from an episode of Supernanny. It was a matter of trial and error, figuring out what worked and what "felt right". I went to a variety of parenting groups over the years, including training for parents of kids with ASCs, a group for super-challenging kids, and "ordinary" groups. I learned something from each of them. With a difficult child you can't be expected to have "the right answer" straight away.

And now I feel like I’ve got it all wrong and my child has ASD/ADHD which has gone unnoticed or is either being abused or a sociopath

You're a loving mum with a difficult child. These are just possibilities, none of us know. I didn't know my DS had an ASC until he hit school (with a bang!); luckily his class teacher spotted it early on.

Once a month for an almighty irrational rage attack doesn't sound that bad to me (or I have low standards ) but given your concerns you could ask for some professional assessments and advice, maybe just for reassurance or to pick up if there is an underlying problem. Maybe talk to your GP and see if you can get a referral to CAMHS?

The problem with the no pancakes punishment was the time lag. Your DC are still very young. Punishing them nearly 24 hours later for a minor silliness at bedtime Is over the top and won't give the right message about consequences. I would guess that part of the reason why your DD drove you so crazy today is that you knew in your heart that the punishment was unfair.

Positive reinforcement works much better than punishment for issues like bedtime anyway - "if you are good and don't get out of bed, you can have/do X tomorrow".

And your DD sounds like a very interesting little girl! Very articulate and insightful about herself. But she is a still only a child, with very strong feelings and not enough maturity to handle all of them.

I think it’s great that she was able to tell you about her anger. That takes courage and trust. Some kids have really strong, intense emotions and it’s a difficult path learning how to deal with these feelings. I have an explosive ds who cares and feels so much more deeply than I do and it’s scary.

I’m going to go against the grain here and suggest that you consider accessing some support for yourself. Can you parent an intense child effectively while carrying the burden of your own mother? Taking time to untangle your feelings about your mother from your fears for your daughter may help enormously.

As someone who is also trying to parent differently from how I was parented, I have found it useful to read blogs, listen to podcasts and read books to help orient my inner compass. I want to be a kind, calm, loving mother (I’m a bit too good on the firm discipline side of things so it’s about softening my approach). I choose parenting approaches that reflect this, so while there are different approaches and advice, it’s all broadly similar.

You’ve had lots of great books recommended already and if you don’t mind one more I’ll suggest Dr Justin Coulson’s 21 Days to a Happier Family Chapter 3 talks about getting the balance between discipline and trust right, which I think, is where you’re at now.

He has some you tube videos and a ted talk too if that’s more accessible.

She’s always been the same. I remember when she was two and we had family round, she was doing the wee dance and I said “why don’t you go and try for a wee? I’ll take you upstairs” she refused and refused and refused to come upstairs. She just stood there and wet herself in front of everyone just staring at me indignant. I just put it down to stubbornness and strong will when she was that age.

Most 2 year olds do this. Honestly, OP, I think you are massively over-thinking all this. The fact that she now has a tantrum once a month is totally normal too. She's upset/fixated today because all her friends will be having pancakes. Normal.

Your posts resonate with me OP, they remind me of my son. He has ASD although i'm not necessarily suggesting your DD must be the same. With my son, stresses in his life build up until he gets into what we call "self destruct". Once in this mindset he will push and push, transgress all boundaries, break all rules until someone snaps and then there will be a lot of screaming and crying which releases the pressure.

When he is in self destruct almost nothing works. The more reasonable we are, the worse he behaves. He will damage the house, kick his brother or cross some other red line which he knows we can't ignore. He is however very well behaved at school.

The solution for us is to stop him getting into "self destruct" in the first place. We try to remove stresses in his life. We talk about feelings and try and help him recognise when he is getting angry or stressed. When he does kick off we try to recognise his feelings ("I know this is really hard for you" etc). We give consequences but they start small and we give chances to "earn back," with good behaviour.

I'm not suggesting your DD has ASD but I do wonder if it's a similar cycle of stress and anger building up and not knowing how to deal with it other than by concocting a big bust up?

OP you sound like a really caring mother, don't he so hard on yourself we all make mistakes!

I agree there are so many schools of thought it's baffling. It sounds like you have a smart girl there who is able to have insight into her reactions and that is a fantastic step. Is she able to tell you when she's nearing "the angry zone"? If she's like me I went from nought to sixty in a second so there was no warning and I do believe someone saying to me "it looks like you are feeling very angry. It's ok to be angry. Tell me about it" would have helped. This may be no use as you have mentioned you're already saying similar so feel free to ignore. But don't be too down on yourself, tantrums are tough!

Ooh - as she has articulated she feels angry - she might do some books with you or at school. There is 'what to do when your temper flares' and maybe a bit young, but The Dissappintment Dragon and a nice positive one is 'Have you filled a bucket today'