Child repeating and repeating until I snap

[Blutterflies]

Exactly that really. I don’t know how to stop this behaviour and this morning I cried, in front of her because I don’t know how to stop it and it can go on for hours.
Background- she is number 2 of 4. Number 1 grown up, other two younger but within a few years difference. She is 8 years old.
She can be very well behaved but has ‘moments’ where I feel helpless.
So, children misbehaving for dp at bedtime last night, getting out of bed (3 separate bedrooms) keep going to toilet etc he says that if they fail to stay in bed and go to sleep he will not be making pancakes for them today. They carried on, eventually went to bed. All asleep by 8.30 so not horrendous but later than expected.
This morning child in question asking for pancakes. I explained why they weren’t having them. Other two children fine, she carried on “mummy?” “Yes?” “Can we have pancakes” “no, the answer is no and you’ve been told why” “mummy?” “Yes?”.............
“Mummy?”
“Mummy?”
“Mummy” I am ignoring by this point and have explained to her that I am not going to answer this same question.
We do spelling and reading in the morning so I try to distract with that, refusal. I write a note in her books to say she has refused (I have been questioned by teachers before about her reading, homework, spellings that she refuses to do) she does not like that at all.
Child follows me round the house crying, pulling at my clothes still Mummy, Mummy, mummy.
I try and ignore her, deal with others, praise them for how sensible and well behaved they’ve been (which they have) this enraged angry child even more. She then starts calling sister stupid. All the while still doing the mummy mummy business and grabbing me.
I lose my fucking shit. Grab her by both arms, scream in her face “you are not having pancakes, not now, not later. Stop grabbing me”
Child stares blankly, “Mummy?”

Iminaglasscaseofemotion it would be cruel if it was when OP was pregnant with the youngest as the 8 years old would have been 3 then.

Thank you. I will try and get some help for us.
I am obviously not winning at this parenting thing and am expecting another child. What am I doing?
I feel utterly wretched now. I certainly do not hate my children and try to communicate love to them often including physical contact, one to one time and meaningful family experiences.
Having three children so close is hard and I do feel like they outnumber me sometimes but I mainly can work with them and it’s fine. And no, my other children are not angels, nor did I say that but they will accept what I say if it is reasonable most of the time.
I’ve been told not to expect her to be like other children then that her behaviour is not “typical” this is where the parenting confusion comes in.
There was a mum in here over Xmas being egged on to CANCEL Christmas as her children wouldn’t tidy up after themselves but I have shouted at my child for driving me to the brink of insanity and now I am a terrible parent and hate her.
I’ll have to re evaluate my approach, I know and maybe try the love bimbing again. Maybe I went a bit tra la la Disney with it (trying to be super positive and sing songy) which made her feel uncomfortable as it’s not how I usually act. That broke my heart what you said @Spam88 but I will try and make things right.

Don't give up. You have plenty of time to turn things around. I guess it pancakes for dinner tonight then!!

hpvacuum101 that's why I was asking, because if the child was only 3, that would be a compete over reaction, and to say she was scaring everyone would also be an over reaction.

Ah ha! I can actually solve this one. When she's calm you need to introduce a "calm down spot". Get her one of those sensory bottles you can make yourself, Pinterest is your friend. Tell her when she badgers you and won't leave you alone that's a sign that she's out of control and needs a safe space to calm down. Set a timer at first for 2 minutes and give her the bottle when she's NOT freaking out. Do it a couple of times and heap on the praise for going there when asked. Make it a comfortable spot with little finger spinners etc that she can only touch when she's there. Introduce the timer so she understands that's how long she needs to stay there. All of this needs to happen when she and you are calm and it's positive. Then when she's fully understanding of the concept try it when she's a little freaked out but not full throttle over the top. Take her to the spot calmly and tell her this is where she needs to be to keep her and you safe and you'll chat to her when the timer goes. Walk away and busy yourself but not too far that you can't see her. The idea is eventually she will recognise the behaviour in herself and take herself away.

Op, no advice here but - if you’d backed down about the pancakes you know everyone would be saying you were being inconsistent / not setting boundaries / setting a precedent / making a rod for your own back / etc. It’s very hard to work out how to parent several children with different personalities and at different ages and stages. Nobody would be doing this perfectly.

I think removing yourself or her from harm is sensible but you need better ways so you don't both end up upset.
One question - do you apologise to her when you get annoyed and explain why? (For context if i'm in a grumpy mood and take it out on DD, DH, pets, etc I will always apologise).
Do you give her and yourself a way out of an escalating situation? Like with the pancakes, say we're not having them now (because) but we will have them tomorrow (if everyone goes to bed) but then maybe have a small consolation to offset the disappointment - especially if you know a meltdown is imminent.

Also look up PDA (pathological demand avoidance) as some of the strategies that help for parents of kids with PDA might do the trick for your daughter as well, if rewards / consequences don’t work.

I try and make a point of apologising if I have been abrupt (busy cooking and they want me to look at something and I say not now) , got something wrong, accidentally blamed them, made an assumption.
I know I may come across quite cut and dry but I really do try and be reasonable. The sensory area thing is a fab idea and my daughter may enjoy that. @Rootd
I also think that adults who have had a troubled childhood themselves struggle to know what a normal family looks like and have trouble modelling that too so I take on board that I may be getting it wrong. It’s hard to see if you’re not being a good parent when your children’s upbringing is 1000x better than yours. I am in no way on a sympathy tip by the way, just saying it’s hard to see where you’re going wrong when you know your kids have much more than you ever did. Maybe I’ve been inadvertently deploying some of the tactics my mother did which is something I’ve been scared of since before having kids and something I try and make a great effort not to emulate.

I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea but the Phillipa Perry book ‘The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read’ is really helpful.

Bit of a wild card and happy for this to be called a stupid suggestion but does she do enough sport/exercise? It might help her to release some emotional tension outside of the home. Not downplaying what you’re going through and can’t help with the communication issues but it might help if she channels some of that stamina elsewhere.

I’m sure you’re doing a great job. It sounds like you really care

Not a mum here, but a youth worker used to working with challenging kids. It sounds hard OP. For what it's worth I don't think ignoring is ever an answer. I think you need to agree some special rules and boundaries with her on a different day when she and you are both in a positive mood. Sit down at the table and openly but calmly discuss the problem. Use a whiteboard or similar to agree rules. Don't use "blaming" language as it will make her defensive. (Eg "you always do this"). Use "feeling" words like "when I see you following me / repeating / shouting I feel sad". Try phrases like "when / then" eg "when you choose to xxxxx (unwanted behaviour) then (consequence) but when you choose to xxxxx (positive behaviour) then there's no problem". Also allow her to say things to you about how she feels and really listen to her. Don't jump in to defend yourself if she tells you she feels bad sometimes. The pp was right that if you do ever lose your temper you should always apologise afterwards as you are modelling.

If in the moment on a bad day she starts with the behaviour again, get down on her level, look into her eyes and calmly remind her of the rule you've agreed and give her one warning before the consequence will kick in. State that warning clearly but very calmly, as if you're not really bothered. Say thank you and walk away- giving her a chance to think about it and follow through. If she makes the right choice then stay calm but a good while later go and say to her you noticed she made a really good choice earlier there, well done and give her a kiss/hug. If she doesn't follow your warning and repeats the unwanted behaviour then just calmly follow through with the consequence- "because you chose to xxxx then the agreed consequence is xxxx". But say it calmly.

Above all, a number 1 tip is this. Whenever you feel cross / angry with her lower your every levels. Clearly state the rule, warning and consequence but lower your voice, keep your body calm and unanimated, and deliver the words in an almost neutral / low energy way. Whenever she behaves positively, change your energy to be super positive and louder with your praise. That way you are rewarding the positives. At the moment the only time she gets your full invested energy is when you lose your temper iyswim.

Finally a helpful book is "the book you wish your parents had read" by Phillippa Perry. I think you would find it really helpful. X

Sounds really tough. I don't think 8.30 is too early a bed time for an 8 year old. Mine are 7&9 and go up at 7 for quiet time - they can play, read, build Lego as long as it's not being loud or running around, then lights out at 8. We are up at 6.30 during the week.

Maybe try the quiet time for her so she feels like she gets to stay up later, but is still upstairs with the others. Maybe she could get an extra 30 minutes once the others have lights out?

You were right to stick with your guns about the pancakes.

She does so much sport. She is exceptionally good at It and loves it. Her particular area is very taxing and she is very dedicated to it. It is not my personal preference that she does so much but both her coaches and her want to do it so she does. This is another reason she goes to bed with the others. After 3 hours of sport she is tired (although not over tired, she has been doing it since 3) maybe should have mentioned that.
The sport I difficult as I want her to feel like we are proud of her (of course we are) but not that our approval is based on her performance in a sport. She knows she doesn’t have to do it, she can quit any time but similarly that she is unable to pick and choose when she goes, she either does it and goes to all the sessions or doesn’t do it at all. It’s weird because she is happy to leave family gatherings/ miss birthday parties to do her sport but will get so angry out of the blue if I say no.

@Blutterflies
"I also think that adults who have had a troubled childhood themselves struggle to know what a normal family looks like and have trouble modelling that too so I take on board that I may be getting it wrong. It’s hard to see if you’re not being a good parent when your children’s upbringing is 1000x better than yours"

This. 1000% this.

It could be reassurance seeking. Maybe she needs some way of letting her know she is still OK, so distraction with something neutral may not cut it. You could try being really warm and enthusiastic about the spelling. Or can you try continuing the conversation? Give her a way to earn the pancakes tomorrow? "Not today. If you all go to bed beautifully tonight we can have pancakes tomorrow". She might possibly also have rigidity issues - that things have to be the way she expects and that if she was expecting pancakes then not getting them is a big deal.

She is testing your boundaries and unfortunately the more angry and upset you get, the more insecure she will feel and the more she will test you and go off at you.

She hates love bombing because she knows I’m being disingenuous.

Then don't use love bombing as such, try some child-led play instead, with her in charge of the play and you following her lead, with a fixed start time and stop time. Doesn't need to be for long, but good if you do it often. You could do that after her sisters are in bed.

She goes to bed with them because the others are 5 and 6. If I said she could stay up the others would want to stay up too

What the other two want shouldn't matter more than what the eldest needs. Don't let them them control you either. She is older, with age comes privilege, quite tiny can kids understand that.

I just hate feeling like I am not in charge and I think she knows this.

And so you are ending up in a power struggle. You are in charge whether you feel it or not, and you acting like you are not by locking the door on her etc is feeding her insecurity. I've been there and done that myself as a parent so I do know what it's like. I'm sure your DD is not enjoying it, it is horrible for both of you.

MrsPworkingmummy have you looked at Explosive Child? It's very good on de-escalating difficult situations. Anxiety is a huge source of tantrums in older-than-toddler kids. One of the book's anecdotes is pancake related . I was one hell of a tantrum chucker myself, it was personality, I was the anxious rigid type too. Used to drive my Mum crackers.

You are overwhelmed.

Calm!! Try a number of these techniques.

Firstly, sit her down and talk to her Very calmly : this can't continue because......xxxxx. When I tell you to do this I need you to do it you must not pull on my close I will give you one warning..... then this whole situation will improve.

You ignore her.

You put her ok the bottom step of the stairs. You calmly say , stay there for one minute, no more pulling me.

You need to find inner strength. I know that's hard but you do have it you just need to find it right now!

She sounds like my Ds1. He almost broke me. Ds2 is easy.

By god, I know what it's like to have a difficult child!

I don't think that is normal behaviour for an 8 year old. I'm afraid I don't have any advice but is there anything else going on with her?

she is happy to leave family gatherings/ miss birthday parties to do her sport but will get so angry out of the blue if I say no.

Could be rigidity. Maybe she has internalised a simple rule that sport comes first and so she "gets" it and it doesn't bother her. But maybe you saying "no" feels as "out of the blue" to her, as her anger feels to you.

She sounds very like my dd. Once an idea is in her head, she will not be deviated from it and will go over and over and over the same argument with me, trying to wear me down.

At 8, your dd's behaviour does not sound age appropriate.

Have you considered whether she has either ASD or ADHD. It's highly likely that my daughter has both.

Are there any other areas in which her thinking is rigid?

What are her social skills like? Does anyone ever say that she is bossy, domineering or a strong character?

What is her reading comprehension or maths problem solving like?

How are her organisational skills?

Please bear in mind that girls on the autistic spectrum present very differently from boys on the spectrum.

It is so hard d when they do that. My (younger) child is a master, and I can't get away from it.

The book how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk is useful in reframing things to get a different outcome.

Also with her sport, can you say something like 'I love to watch you play x' and just leave it at that, not linking it to how well she does. Maybe comment that you can see how happy it makes her, or how hard she has worked, rather than linked to performance if you see what I mean?

@AmaryllisNightAndDay Thank you for the recommendation. I will try anything! Do you get on with your parents now? I find myself feeling so angry towards my daughter as she literally will not do anything she is told. I really hope she doesn't hate me for it when she's older. For those saying things like, sit her on the stairs for a minute etc - you have absolutely no understanding of how bad the behaviour is. My daughter would get up, come at me, hit, kick and throw things. Time out DOES NOT work.

Yes I do get on well with my parents now, and I do understand just what a rough time I put my Mum through. She and my Dad tried a lot of things with me. My teen years were especially hard for them but then again they didn't really get help til then, and things started to get better after that.

And I get on well now with own DS too, though it wasn't always easy for us either and I needed Explosive Child, parenting groups and CAMHS when he was little. Sometimes I view this as karma, though it's probably just the apple not falling far from the tree .

Explosive Child is very much about kids for whom "ordinary" parenting like time out doesn't work. I hope it's some use to you!