Child repeating and repeating until I snap

[Blutterflies]

Exactly that really. I don’t know how to stop this behaviour and this morning I cried, in front of her because I don’t know how to stop it and it can go on for hours.
Background- she is number 2 of 4. Number 1 grown up, other two younger but within a few years difference. She is 8 years old.
She can be very well behaved but has ‘moments’ where I feel helpless.
So, children misbehaving for dp at bedtime last night, getting out of bed (3 separate bedrooms) keep going to toilet etc he says that if they fail to stay in bed and go to sleep he will not be making pancakes for them today. They carried on, eventually went to bed. All asleep by 8.30 so not horrendous but later than expected.
This morning child in question asking for pancakes. I explained why they weren’t having them. Other two children fine, she carried on “mummy?” “Yes?” “Can we have pancakes” “no, the answer is no and you’ve been told why” “mummy?” “Yes?”.............
“Mummy?”
“Mummy?”
“Mummy” I am ignoring by this point and have explained to her that I am not going to answer this same question.
We do spelling and reading in the morning so I try to distract with that, refusal. I write a note in her books to say she has refused (I have been questioned by teachers before about her reading, homework, spellings that she refuses to do) she does not like that at all.
Child follows me round the house crying, pulling at my clothes still Mummy, Mummy, mummy.
I try and ignore her, deal with others, praise them for how sensible and well behaved they’ve been (which they have) this enraged angry child even more. She then starts calling sister stupid. All the while still doing the mummy mummy business and grabbing me.
I lose my fucking shit. Grab her by both arms, scream in her face “you are not having pancakes, not now, not later. Stop grabbing me”
Child stares blankly, “Mummy?”

I don’t think she does have any issues such as ADHD/ ASD. She can be bossy with the other two but is well settled at school with friends and has had same friends for years.
She is very organised with her things. Likes her room tidy, bed made etc
I would like to reiterate that this isn’t a day to day thing for us. It seems completely random as sometimes I say no and she says ok and gets in with her day. I do think that if she has a certain expectation then she finds it harder to move on from it.
My partner has phoned me to let me know she’s had a terrible day at school (answering I don’t know to all questions) and has come back going on and on about bloody pancakes so she must be exhausted keeping it up all day.
This is officially the worst it’s ever been.
I will be sure to look into those books. How to talk does not work and she just screams NO when I try the tactics they suggest especially the one where they ask for something and you turn it into a game where you say “imagine if there was a pile of pancakes as high as the sky, and we could eat as many as we like. I wish I. Oils do that” she goes APE!

For those saying things like, sit her on the stairs for a minute etc - you have absolutely no understanding of how bad the behaviour is. My daughter would get up, come at me, hit, kick and throw things. Time out DOES NOT work.

This. It’s so futile doing things like this because she’s past the point of reason or even “sanity” it’s like she is in some sort of trance and she develops super human abilities to carry on. It’s lasted probably 2 hours before.

Thanks @AmaryllisNightAndDay

I am going to change bedtime tonight. I’ll put them all down together then spend some time in her bedroom with her before going downstairs. Maybe allow her to have reading time for a short while after. God I hope tomorrow is a better day.

I really rate 'how to talk so kids will listen' and 'the explosive child' as good books for useful tips.

From personal experience I have learned that the more positive parent techniques seem better with more difficult children or you all get in a spiral of negativity.

I am trying to think of some specific tips. I think there is something called active ignoring that might make the ignoring bad behaviour more effective.

Tell her that you are going to have special time to read together/colour/quiet play every day after the other two are in bed. Stick to it, have a clear start and finish time and let her choose the activity. Try it for a few nights and see if it helps.

I see 'how to talk' doesnt work - i hadnt spotted that update.

My second DS is difficult. Time out doesnt work, reward charts dont work, threats/consequences dont work.
Its hard.

With my DS a lot of it comes from anxiety. (He does have autism) so something like pancake day, being called pancake day and not being allowed pancakes would blow his mind and make him very anxious. He would also not link not going to bed with not being allowed a foodtype.
Maybe have a look at how anxiety csn present and consider if she is anxious

Look into a Hand in Hand Parenting course in your area. It’s a totally different approach that has good ways to tackle exactly this sort of thing, ways to step out of it bring a power game for them.
Sounds bloody exhausting and I can see why you snapped x

Hi OP,

Just to echo what others have suggested... it sounds like your DD is having a hard time organising her feelings and communicating her needs to you. Rather than 'time outs', she might need 'time ins' but she is unlikely to ask for this, particularly when she is upset/angry! It might be helpful to step back and think what it is about her behaviour which triggers such a response from you? Most areas have early help/early intervention services and some might deliver parenting programmes that don't just give you strategies/techniques to use but actually help you to reflect on the relationship you have with your children (and why your relationship with each child might be different/ they trigger different responses from you)

This video might be helpful, as a bit of an explanation of the above:

vimeo.com/145329119

I would not completely dismiss asd, it is worth looking in to. All children are so different, it can present completely differently in each child. I'm not saying this to annoy you as if I am ignoring your posts, I have read all of them and with each one, I am seeing more and more that would make me suggest an assessment to you if you were my friend in real life. Good luck.

I too think you need to get a psychological evaluation. Obsessive neatness can be a sign of ASD/OCD. I don't think her behaviour is normal for an 8 year old and her persistence despite very negative results does seem to be quite compulsive and obsessive.

As a pp said, ASD presents very differently in girls. You need to at least get this ruled out.

Everyone tends to point the finger at ASD on here nowadays.

OP I think I was like your daughter as a child. I think I was reasonably ok behaved on the whole but I know I was very demanding, and the keeping on and keeping on and not letting things go, grinding people down resonated with me. My parents used to tell me I should be a Barrister. People have different personalities.

I don't have any answers sorry, but I completely understand how you reacted as I've been guilty of reacting like that to my DS who's much younger. He's only 4 but I can see him being like this when he was older, I guess I'm getting a taste of my own medicine!

People who work in SEN will tell you that it’s incredibly common for children (especially girls) to mask symptoms of ASD, ADHD, and PDA in school- it’s almost a cliche for teachers to proclaim that a child is “fine in school” only for a diagnosis to be made demonstrating the reverse. Of course none of that means your child must have SEN, but I wouldn’t totally discount it.

I would be firm at bedtime but not cancel the pancakes.
How much was she mucking around out of the three?

It ramps it up too much to punish the next day when they might be fine by then.

OP didn’t lock her in the garden put it cruelty but to protect her for a minute whilst she calmed down. My autistic son pursues me when I’m at breaking point and repeats things and makes me repeat things constantly and it is a form of mental torture. I understand how you feel OP.

I’m not suggesting she has autism but I would take her to a child psychologist to see what they think I order to get done support and ideas.

I highly recommend the book called: The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read (And Your Kids Will Be Glad You Did). It frames children's behaviour at their own level and also looks at how your behaviour is affecting your DS.

It sounds so so challenging. Can you say to her calmly, at her level next time: I know it feels unfair that you don't get pancakes. And it's ok to be sad and to feel mad about that.
And then a cuddle and perhaps a chance to be good tonight and have pancakes tomorrow?

I say this because I really recognise myself in the behaviour you are describing of your daughter and my mum ignored, disciplined etc but what I wasn't was for her to frame what I felt in a safe way I could understand and that made me not feel like a bad person or an outcast from the family.

@Blutterflies, I recommended How to talk, but agree re the wish fulfilment - both my two go apeshit if I try that

My DD has has been very anxious and oppositional in the past due to trauma, and is quite similar in being like a dog with a bone if she's told no - she would also go crackers if told to have a time-out, and would argue black is white rather than admit she's wrong. Of course it drives me up the wall, but if I can get some calm down time for both of us, I can summon up the ability to deal with it sympathetically and find a way through.

I think a calm down time like @Rootd suggested might work really well, and then just sit down, give her a cuddle if she fancies it, and just say "I can hear how cross you are - can we talk about it?" or whatever.

The only prob is, non-consequential punishments like taking away pancakes for bedtime shenanigans don't fit that well with the sort of acknowledging feelings approach - so it might be worth thinking about, eg, talking through with her whether she feels it's an unfair punishment and whether there's something else the kids could do to make it up to you instead.

I thought it was really brave of you to say that you hate feeling like you're not in charge - but actually, that can lead to everyone being stuck in their different positions. My best parenting (which certainly isn't all the time!!) is when I'm able to be creative and kind, and relinquish the worry about being in charge - doesn't entail abandoning all boundaries. This all sounds very smug - I have just briefly shouted at DD, if that makes you feel better, but we had a hug afterwards

I think I would give them an opportunity to earn the pancakes back because I think it’s quite a severe punishment.

Longer term it sounds like something else is going on. I would be thinking is there any opportunity for someone to be hurting her, one to one coaching or something.

Well we’ve had a good talk and have come up with a couple of solutions one being a later bedtime on the nights I’m here 4 nights and goes down with the others when it’s daddy. When she officially turns 8, she will be able to stay up every night. The others have accepted and the same privilege will be given to the others when they turn 8.

It was interesting talking to her about this. Whoever said she is doing it to make me feel as bad as her was right on the money. She said she purposely thinks of stuff to keep her angry when she’s in “the angry zone” (her words) she does extra naughty stuff so that I will eventually let her have what she wants, she thinks I will consider the next level stuff she does so bad that I’ll do anything to stop it including giving her what she originally asked for. This is why she has tipped out my handbag and trashed stuff before. She told me that sometimes she gets in the angry zone all by herself when she’s mad at something I’ve refused her and sets a trap for me or steals something small from my room to teach me a lesson
I suggested having a hug or holding hands quietly, sitting together or singing. She said she’d hate the physical contact ideas and probably feel like pushing me or snatching her hand away, singing she couldn’t manage because she’s angry.
She was open to the idea of having something to fiddle with bit said she’d probably throw it.
I was shocked at the way she could articulate her feelings and be so honest about it and so matter of fact.
I will not rule out ASD but will speak to others and see what they think. I must admit it’s not something I’ve considered.

I’m trying to think of the personality trait this reminds me of - is it sociopath? Seems like a heavy word to use for a child if so but it just reminds me of one. I’m sure that’s not the case here. Glad to hear you’ve had a nice chat.

Is it possible she rails against perceived unfairness most?

The one thing that will upset my middle child is unfairness and I know punishment a day later would be hard for him as it would feel too controlling.

I told her that I was sorry for getting so upset and that adults shouldn’t get to a point where they are so frustrated they shout or cry. I said I will try taking some deep breaths with my eyes closed and think of other things.
We weren’t able to completely come up with a solution as I didn’t know what to suggest. I tried suggesting that before it escalated we would try to intervene with something but again, she said it would make her madder.
Somebody else said it was probably anxiety which I believe to be true. She said the anger is like the fire she gets at a sports competition. We call it the fire because her sport requires her to have a very controlled amount of determination and poise, she uses the fire to get through the competition and is very good at focusing on it. It helps her to block everything else out. I think that is a nervous kind of energy or heightened awareness or something.

My mother is a sociopath

I’m not going to lie I have thought it and immediately felt guilty because it’s a big thing to say about a child.

She reduced one of my friends to tears once by asking sympathetic questions about her inability to have children. She said something like “I know why you’re sad that you can’t have a baby because you won’t have a child who loves you the most”

Repetition and trying to dominate at 8 years of age is standard over here. You need to create space between you when she starts acting up. So use a naughty step or bedroom. Give a warning about whatever behaviour it is, that’s her opportunity to stop. If she doesn’t then you tell her to go to the naughty step, or her room if you feel that will be better. Give her 5 mins go in tell her what she did and why she was sent there- so- “you were sent to your room for Repeating your question over and over and not accepting that I said no. Now say sorry-“ she then apologises if she doesn’t give her another 5 mins until she does she gets three chances to say sorry nicely if not it’s bed for an hour. That way you are apart physically and you can cool off and she can’t too you over the edge. If she acts up in the naughty corner or in bedroom tell her she will go to bed for an hour. Don’t cry in front of her if you can help it. Good luck.

Ah I’m sorry to hear about your mother. It’s a big leap from me to suggest it but you know what to look for. It’s good she shows some sympathy! Let’s hope the talk starts to put you both on the right track 🙂

Can you say to her calmly, at her level next time: I know it feels unfair that you don't get pancakes. And it's ok to be sad and to feel mad about that.
And then a cuddle and perhaps a chance to be good tonight and have pancakes tomorrow?

This is exactly what I do. I want her to feel in charge of her emotions, that they’re ok and that she can express them.

The idea of me telling her to go to another room and her just doing it is absolutely absurd. “Send her somewhere else, after a few minutes pop your head in and have a calm quiet chat with her” I wish.
I think when a child has no fear of consequences or no inclination to follow any kind of instructions they won’t do anything they’re asked. She certainly wouldn’t just go to another space and even manhandled into a space will fly out of it like a rocket literally before I’ve even turned my back. Firmly placing child back into naughty step/ said space might as well be a physical fight.
Bribes work but I’m not living my life indebted to my child