Help! I have a gender non-conforming DS, and feel like the rubber is hitting the road.

[WankmasterBastardDeLaShithead]

DS (10) has been "gender non-conforming" since he was a toddler, and able to choose clothes and toys. We've generally just let him get on with it, not making a big deal about it, and letting him know that it's fine to be a boy and wear a dress/play with dolls etc. He's navigated his own way through all sorts of situations with ingenuity, and grim determination .

Anyway as he's getting older we're encountering more and more tricky situations. Toilets have been a sticking point, although we've mostly got round that by encouraging him to use "neutral" loos where possible. The school organised a meeting for us to discuss this, after an incident where he wet himself (after feeling uncomfortable/unwelcome in the boys' loos, but discouraged by me to use the girls' loos). He now uses the neutral loos at school.

Today though, I've come up against two dilemmas to do with sex /gender identity, and I'm just not sure what position to take. Firstly he goes to gymnastics in a mixed class. His teacher spoke up me after the class, referring to him as 'she' and taking about putting him forward to a (sex segregated) competition at some point in the future. I had registered him for the classes as a boy (obviously), but haven't had an explicit conversation about his gender. He does look "girly" (longish hair) so I completely understand why they're mistaken. I didn't correct the teacher in the moment, as it was in public and this is one thing (correcting people on his gender) that DS finds embarrassing. He doesn't mind being called he or she, but he does mind any "fuss" about it.

I then got home to find an email from his school about an initiative aimed at encouraging girls' confidence, and his teacher feels that he would like to do it. Argh. It's well-meaning, and I know comes from an understanding that his friends are nearly all girls, he looks like a girl, and he will feel left out if he isn't included. Obviously I'm very uncomfortable about this, but my heart is also aching for DS, because this will probably be difficult for him.

Basically if there wasn't such weird gender stereotyping in our society, I'm pretty sure DS would be happily rocking out as a girly boy, but because there is, he's being made to feel that to do the things he likes doing, he has to "be" a girl. It's so shit.

Anyway, I just feel so stuck as to how to do the right thing by DS. Any advice?

I’ve been thinking about the toilet issue and it does need re looking at OP

If he feels unsafe in the boys loos due to teasing then that needs addressing
Hiding him away in ‘gender neutral loos’ is re enforcing his gender issues when it’s actually more than he is using single toilets as he gets picked on in the ones he should be in.
Do they let other bullied kids use the neutral loos?

It’s subtle things that reinforce this idea that if you are different to rigid gender stereotypes then you are trans and that’s actually a huge leap. By demedicalising The issue of being transgender and making it about feelings we are downplaying what is actually almost likely a deep rooted very significant condition.

Some people certainly have gender dysphoria and need support and positive affirmation may help relieve their distress

Bit many people are just not comfortable within the set boundaries and we must ensure they are free to be themselves without pushing them into thinking it is anymore than simple individuality.

Reinforce to your DS he is male and he can be and present however he wants within that but hiding his sex or going along with people who think he is female is wrong.
Adults around him including school should support him with that assertion.

I agree that he might find it difficult to correct adults, but this is surely why Op needs to step up to stop them treating him as a girl?

I really think you need to speak to your son about this and find out why people have been referring to him as a girl. Has he asked people to? Have his friends started doing it? If he is choosing not to tell people he is a boy, there is probably a reason for it. Talk to him.

Sounds like the coach and teachers have had Mermaid style training. They’re trying to support what they perceive to be your son’s choices. And they see you as a parent unsupportive of the supposed trans status of your son.

Have a private word. Ask why they are suggesting that Patrick/Christopher/Samuel/insert full masculine man here/etc be placed with the girls and why they call him she/her.
That way you can discover if it’s their assumptions OR if your son has said anything about it.

There is a lot of confused thinking here.

The transgenderists believe that, if you feel like a girl, you must be a girl. The GC view is that feelz don’t matter, bits do (a view I would tend to concur with).

OTOH, the GC feel that ‘being yourself’ is really important and almost fetishise this. So, if a boy wants red ribbons in waste length hair, then it is important to accommodate this (personally, I think this is equally about ‘feelz’). It really isn’t.

Cultures have norms for dressing, and this includes different clothes for boys and girls. These should be respected in formal settings (e.g schools and offices). In certain businesses (entertainment for one) and in one’s free time, you should be welcome to play with these norms as you see fit.

As I said upthread no one would feel comfortable about one’s child dressing in a feathered headdress for school, or a Masai child’s normal dress, just because they ‘liked them’, however somehow cultural norms around gendered clothing is seen as different and wins rather than loses woke points.

Come on, OP, if your child insisted on doing gym naked (as was common practice in many societies throughout the ages), would you admire his brave individuality or insist he put some clothes on??!!

Very well said @Durgasarrow

No advice, but I agree society does make it difficult for girly boys to just be who they are, and vice versa. DS (6) is very dainty and loves top.ay with the girls, but is also happy to kick a football around. It's sad to see the girls less willing to play with him, and him trying g to be a bit more butch for the boys games.

Tom that is a transgender woman who has taken the hormones and reduced testosterone. It's a not a male who's gender no conforming competing in the woman competition.

And there is still research going on onto whether early testosterone gives an advantage during liberty before transitioning.

Inwood. That's what I was trying to say but much less succinctly 😂

It sounds like he needs to hear you sticking up for him being a boy, in a casual way, as often as possible, so it becomes easier for him to do.
And you need to ask school why they haven't addressed the persistent questions by other boys. He probably needs his own answers too. "They aren't girl's shoes, they are my shoes and I'm a boy".

Drgrylls, he has actually said exactly that sort of thing numerous times. I think I've perhaps given a slightly unrepresentative picture on this thread... It's not as black and white as him never saying anything.

LarryGrylls - that's reductio ad absurdum. He's wearing entirely appropriate clothes for school, generally on the more "masculine" side, but with an occasional hint of "girliness" (eg shoes with my little pony, or his long hair with a scrunchie). It seems horribly repressive to not allow these minor aberrations from stereotypical "boy" presentation. I think it would be more damaging to forbid it.

@itsgettingweird
You specifically said
Thing is with sport it's competed in biological sex and not gender
A trans woman on hormones is still not a different biological sex
I agree that's not relevant to the OP's situation but I was replying to your own post.

Oops I meant drspouse

If he can say that sort of thing, maybe you need to sit him down and say "from now on we will be saying this sort of thing, and we will nip it in the bud"

It's truly important when one is the mother of sons (I am, too) to help them realize the privileged position they hold in the world and to help them understand that they must never take advantage of that position. In your case, you have an extra burden, because your son is being given the opportunity to cross some very inappropriate boundaries that other boys aren't allowed to. As he becomes a man, this will become even clearer. Males are bigger and stronger than females and their physical power is intimidating. Going into the girl's bathroom is a moral invasion, even if some girls think it is okay. Going into girls' sports is morally wrong, and almost no girls think it is okay. There is going to be a blowback to this at some point, even though right now it is encouraged.

itsgettingweird
It very much is a male competing in the women’s competition.
Lowered testosterone does not mean on a level with women, and lowered testosterone does not remove all the advantages of being male in sport.

I'm not actually sure what biological sex OP's child is.

Or what this thread is about, but that never stopped an MNer from adding their 2p... OP started talking about a very specific situation: which sex group to compete with and develop with, gymnastics wise. Gymnastics as a sport is especially gendered in what activities they learn to do, so they need to train up for what different sex bodies tend to do in that sport. Your (biological I think?) son will need to compete and train with biological males. Sounds like you just need to explain to his gym teacher what is sex is, so which types of gymnastics exercise he needs to work on.

Many sports are separated by sex.

It strikes me that Bruce Jenner won the MEN'S decathlon. It was appropriate category for the physique his chromosomes gave him.

I dont really see the issue tbh. You're worried about him being included in specifically female activities so just say to the coach(s) that you appreciate them thinking of him but as he's a boy you don't think it would be appropriate. Easy.
Have the came convo with your son. What's the problem?
In no way could this be mistaken as causing a fuss.

Would you let a ten year old navigate big life issues? Really? I think you've made a rod for your own back I'm afraid.

Wank,

My point is not reductio ad absurdum and you are continually changing your story. If your son primarily presents as masculine, why do people keep confusing him as a girl and how are ‘my little pony’ boots appropyfor either sec in a school environment?

And now you are claiming that just taking the easy route at school is ‘horribly repressive’. School just is not the place for individual expression, there are weekends and school hols for that.

And whilst presenting as female at the gym might get him plaudits. It is not fair on the actual girls to whom he is being compared.

Having slept on it, I'm clearer about what I was so bothered by. My problem isn't really that I "don't know what to do", or that I'm being too passive. I'm bothered by the fact that I have been communication with others in a straightforward, no-fuss way, and I'm basically being disregarded.

We had an "assessment of needs" meeting with the school a month or so ago (instigated by them following his toilet accident). I was very, very clear that he sees himself as a boy, in comfortable in his body, and he happens to enjoy "girly" things, and plays mostly with girls. The toilet solution seemed like a no-fuss option, given that they're accessible to all pupils. It was left that they would have an assembly, not specifically about DS, but a general "be kind to people, even if they're different" sort of thing. Again, no big deal. They often have these sort of assemblies. And yet yesterday they send me this message about inviting him to a girls' initiative.

At gymnastics I've signed him up as a boy, I've introduced him as a boy, and yet they're referring to him as a girl.

The short convo I had with another adult last week, I corrected her, and she persisted in misgendering him.

It's all well and good to say "I don't know what the fuss is about", but actually when you're clearly communicating something and are being repeatedly misheard/misunderstood/disregarded it does start to feel like a big deal. In fact it feels a bit like gaslighting, with me doubting myself.

Obviously the solution is to be louder and clearer and more insistent, which is the solution is essentially come to already, but please don't diminish my feeling that it is quite s challenge.

FFS the paragraph thing is very annoying.

Then he’s clearly telling them something different 🤷🏻‍♀️

@WankmasterBastardDeLaShithead, there are some really knowledgable women over on the feminism board who'll be able to signpost you to some fantastic resources. There are some parents on there in your position who I'm sure will be happy to give advice.