Help! I have a gender non-conforming DS, and feel like the rubber is hitting the road.

[WankmasterBastardDeLaShithead]

DS (10) has been "gender non-conforming" since he was a toddler, and able to choose clothes and toys. We've generally just let him get on with it, not making a big deal about it, and letting him know that it's fine to be a boy and wear a dress/play with dolls etc. He's navigated his own way through all sorts of situations with ingenuity, and grim determination .

Anyway as he's getting older we're encountering more and more tricky situations. Toilets have been a sticking point, although we've mostly got round that by encouraging him to use "neutral" loos where possible. The school organised a meeting for us to discuss this, after an incident where he wet himself (after feeling uncomfortable/unwelcome in the boys' loos, but discouraged by me to use the girls' loos). He now uses the neutral loos at school.

Today though, I've come up against two dilemmas to do with sex /gender identity, and I'm just not sure what position to take. Firstly he goes to gymnastics in a mixed class. His teacher spoke up me after the class, referring to him as 'she' and taking about putting him forward to a (sex segregated) competition at some point in the future. I had registered him for the classes as a boy (obviously), but haven't had an explicit conversation about his gender. He does look "girly" (longish hair) so I completely understand why they're mistaken. I didn't correct the teacher in the moment, as it was in public and this is one thing (correcting people on his gender) that DS finds embarrassing. He doesn't mind being called he or she, but he does mind any "fuss" about it.

I then got home to find an email from his school about an initiative aimed at encouraging girls' confidence, and his teacher feels that he would like to do it. Argh. It's well-meaning, and I know comes from an understanding that his friends are nearly all girls, he looks like a girl, and he will feel left out if he isn't included. Obviously I'm very uncomfortable about this, but my heart is also aching for DS, because this will probably be difficult for him.

Basically if there wasn't such weird gender stereotyping in our society, I'm pretty sure DS would be happily rocking out as a girly boy, but because there is, he's being made to feel that to do the things he likes doing, he has to "be" a girl. It's so shit.

Anyway, I just feel so stuck as to how to do the right thing by DS. Any advice?

LarryGrylls, I think you might be being deliberately obtuse here. Firstly, equating him having long hair, and wearing school-appropriate shoes with my little ponies on, to him being naked or wearing a maasai outfit is ludicrous. Also I haven't changed my story. There's a relatively relaxed uniform policy at his school, and everything he wears is well within their rules. Outside of school he often wears skirts/sparkly jumpers etc, and that's where most of the misgendering actually happens. Perhaps I need to spell out again for the hard of reading that he is not "presenting as female" in gymnastics. Despite me registering him as a boy, and introducing him in person as "he", they are categorising him as a girl. Again, weird and bizarre, and I am going to make it abundantly clear to them that he will not be competing with the girls. Your suggestion that he "takes the easy route at school", by which I assume you mean insisting that he has a short hair cut, has all traces of "girliness" no matter how minor eradicated from his clothing, perhaps stops playing with dolls, and hangs out more with boys, does not sound easy to me. It sounds repressive and damaging. Perhaps I should also tell him that "boys don't cry" and start instilling in him a firm belief that he had to be strong, and should expect to be the main breadwinner. You do realise that these hideously rigid stereotypes are hugely harmful to both men and women, don't you?

Of course he’s going to be mistaken for a girl if he’s wearing a skirt...
To be honest, playing with dolls / my little pony branded clothing is not really a 10 year old thing, boy or girl.

To be honest, playing with dolls / my little pony branded clothing is not really a 10 year old thing, boy or girl.

Do you know many 10 year olds?

74newstreet, I've just asked him why he thought the gymnastics teacher was calling him "she". He said he didn't know. I asked him if he'd asked the teacher to call him " she". He looked at me as if I was mad, and said no.

Loads of them, Ok

So ask him why he doesn’t correct her when she does it.

It is odd that the gymnast teacher keeps calling him she, I assume they know he’s a boy? It’s annoying but you’ll have to have a chat and ask them to stop.

If he wears a skirt etc in his free time it’s going to be hard to stop people being mistaken but at least you can talk to the few people at school.

74newstreet, hmm, I think there are lots of 10 year old who do!

And they don't play with dolls? Or like MLP?

We must move in very different circles, the many ten year old girls I know are very much into dolls and MLP, or similar.

Marsha, I'm guessing that the teacher doesn't often speak to/ about him in the 3rd person, so he wouldn't have many opportunities to correct her. She rarely speaks to the parents afterwards, and this is the first time she's called him "she" in my presence, which is why I was caught off guard. That said, he's been in the class for about six months, so she's been mistaken for quite some time!

What a nightmare. I would ask for a meeting with both they mastics teacher and school and explain again why it's innapriopriate for them to be calling your son her and referring him for 'girls only' events and competitions. They probably think they're doing the pc thing, let them know they most certainly are not. I would be very unhappy if it was me!

74newstreet, I imagine he didn't correct her because she was talking to me, and he didn't want to butt in. He's also told me after other similar situations that he finds it embarrassing. As I've posted previously, I'm going to have a chat with him about how to handle it more confidently.

74newstreet, out of curiosity, what exactly is your point about 10 year olds supposedly not playing with dolls?

Sir I agree. And I actually didn't realise transgendered athletes had now been given authorisation to compete. I did know that those who weren't suspected of being 'intersex' were having hormones tested to check they were within certain levels. I was mistaken there as that's not the experience I have with my sons sport.

I'm glad you feel more clear now. And your are absolutely right that others shouldn't be misgendering him. Male or female or trans!

Sorry if I've got this wrong as it's quite a long thread but my understanding is that your son has long hair and likes certain things that are more commonly associated with girls. And despite the fact he is a boy and has made no claim to want to be anything else, some people are refering to him as a girl? So the school are doing this by emailing you about that confidence programme. To that, I'd just email a reply saying, "thank you for thinking of ds, but ds is a boy and this programme says that it's just for girls. Perhaps you have a made a mistake in sending this to me, or are boys allowed to attend?" Just play it a bit dumb, ask questions, state that he's a boy.

With the gym teacher, I'd do the same thing. I'd just catch her after the next class and say, by the way I realise it might not be obvious because of the hair, but ds is actually a boy and the girls class isn't really appropriate for him.

Toilets at school, I'm assuming he uses the mixed sex because he was bullied in the boys or something? That's really bad on the part of the school if so. They should be tackling the bullying, not moving your ds. I understand he doesn't want to make a fuss, but I think you should on his behalf over this. Him moving to another toilet kind of reinforces that the bullies were right.

I think a problem here is that a lot of the transgender training teaches that if a boy is like your ds, then it's a "gender identity" thing, and so some well-meaning adults may think they're actually helping your ds, rather than enforcing rigid stereotypes.

He's a boy. The end.
I find clothes and everything for boys now pretty much ugly when I think about what boys could get away with in the 70/80/90. And pink seems to be the only girly colour in the world. I completely understand my boys wanting glitter and sparkle too on their clothes, bright colours, and we do find them from time to time.
There might be a bullying problem for the loo. Be more assertive, you already are, but "boy" is not a dirty word. "He" neither. He's a boy, he likes stuff that in 2020, it's not always "cool" to like as a boy. I have three my little poney ultra fans who did not miss one episode, - two boys. He does not have to overshare his tastes at school. Skirts, as he gets older will not be very helpful, and you will find teachers insisting that for that matter he is NOT a boy. Just saying. As puberty hits there are a lot of kids who discover that something is not going quite "right" in term of gender assignment and start opting for the other gender. He will just be tossed with the bunch and not be accepted for who he is. A boy.

Is he a very 'young' 10 OP? My daughter isn't exactly streetwise and old beyond her years but she grew out of My Little Pony long before she was ten. If your son is going to move to 'big school' next year I think he will get a rough time from the other boys and probably some of the girls too if he's still playing with toys/wearing clothing/footwear that is more appropriate for younger children.

I also think there is more to the 'misgendering' than you realise if he is consistently being referred to as female at school. As you said, you suspect he enjoys being mistaken for a girl so if I were you I would be asking direct questions of the school staff to find out if your son has asked for she/her pronouns to be used or told them that either him/he or she/her are fine with him. In today's climate they don't have to tell you but perhaps they will?

Once you've got a clearer picture perhaps you can have a talk with your son and find out how he wants to go forward when he moves schools? If he is as confused as you are at this point it won't be doing his mental health any good regardless of how he would like to present so best get it all out in the open with him so that you can support his decision (which may, of course change over time) as he progresses through his school career.

DD had definitely dropped My Little Pony long before she turned 10yo.

I also find MLP a little strange at his age. His shoe size must be at least IUK if not more. How is he getting on with his peers generally? Does he prefer playing with younger children? There may be more going on?

"My problem isn't really that I "don't know what to do", or that I'm being too passive."... Understatement for the whole thing

Well thanks again fecka and 74 for your gems of wisdom. You can rest easy tonight knowing that you've contributed your very best to Mumsnet and humanity in general.

I think the thread has probably run its course now, as it seems to be getting too long for people to digest the important points/updates. Thanks to the many other posters who have offered their ideas and kindness. I really appreciate it, and it's definitely helped clarify things for me.

I hope he is happier when you have had your chat with him and the school/gym OP. The main thing is that he is happy and confident in himself. Parenting and trying to do our best is a minefield at times and we can only try our best. I don't know if its an option to talk to a child professional to offer you a bit of guidance if you think it would help.

I am glad the thread has been useful OP. You’ve already had a lot of advice so I’m not going to comment on what’s already been posted.

I just wanted to add that you may also want to start thinking ahead to how you and DS will manage this at secondary school. My experience is that secondary school kids are a lot more confrontational and outspoken than at primary school. So it’s something you’ll need to mentally prepare your DS for. There are quite a few boys with long hair at my DCs school, so that wouldn’t be seen as unusual at all (but I don’t know if this is different in other parts of the country). However, if anyone had a MLP backpack, for example, that would definitely get negative comments.

Secondary schools are quite strict on homophobic / racist bullying but they can’t police every single comment made in the corridors etc. The fact he wet himself rather than use boys toilets because of comments made about his shoes is something I would be wanting to think about. Yes, ask the primary school to do assemblies on being kind and accepting, but also as he gets older, if he wants to wear clothing that is unusual for his age/sex then he may get comments and that is something you’ll have to work out a way for him to cope with.

Dress codes at secondary often tend to be stricter - scrunchies or boots with pictures on would not be allowed at either of my DCs schools.

I know it’s a little while off yet but I always think it’s better to prepare children gradually rather than it being a shock.

(Incidentally, I quite like the fact that the 6th formers at my DCs secondary school wear some weird and wonderful non-conforming outfits. Many boys wear nail varnish and have long hair, girls with crew cuts and dungarees. At the Prom the Best Dressed boy had a face full of make-up. Very clearly a boy and he looked fab. As far as I can tell the final taboo seems to be men in skirts, but I see Harry Styles is trying to sort than one out!
If only we could just let these kids be themselves without putting them in boxes .....)