Men at baby groups...

[Foxmuffin]

I might be BU but I’ve got a 3 month old baby and have been going to a few baby groups. I find it a bit off putting when partners/husbands join Mum and baby. I totally understand that women who have had sections will need help driving and possibly lifting things but have also know partners drop off and find a pub/cafe for the hour groups go on.

I’m EBF and I’ve been to a group of 9 where I was the only one BFing, with groups of new mums I feel comfortable just getting my boob out to feed, but when babies are on the bottle with men there I feel a bit uncomfortable and it kind of spoils it for me. I suppose if their partner is BFing I feel a bit more like they’ll understand. Please understand I’m not looking down at FF, it’s more that if Mum’s OH is used to seeing BFing and babies feeding for comfort for what can sometimes feel like most the group I feel they’ll understand.

My own DH went back to work after a week so I’ve been doing all these things on my own for some time. He has never been one to pander over either of us so I’ve had to do the food shop etc myself and get on without support (actually a little pandering would have been nice, but he’s not like that).

I’m probably being self conscious, I don’t mind feeding in public but in enclosed spaces I feel the need to be more discreet which then spoils baby bonding time which is why I go to these classes.

Offer solutions Many have! Sadly there aren't many.

a) Use a side room if there is one
b) Don't go to that group
c) Get used to it, adapt

What else is there?

The OP doesnt want to feed in a private room though so more private rooms wouldn't help. The OP has to make the decision either she goes to this group and gets used to feeding using a cover etc or she doesnt go to this group.

@JessicaWakefieldSV

You are kind of missing the point.

We aren't talking about lack of private spaces in which to feed - OP has specifically said that she doesn't want to use a private space.

What OP wants is to be able to feed openly at the group and in order to do this she wants men excluded. That's why I think she is being unreasonable.

This isn't about women being excluded because there is no private feeding room. It's about a woman refusing to use a private room but wanting the group to accommodate what she wants.

DecomposingComposers

No I’m not missing it, I understand it. Like I said, we can discuss it maturely without shaming. You’re perfectly entitled to say it’s unreasonable to make the request she is. I object to the pile on and shaming of her, not to your posts in particular.

We have to consider that in including men in groups where breastfeeding occurs, you are excluding women who for many reasons, won’t be comfortable with that. Like my sister. I don’t see anything wrong with female only infant groups, and then others which include men too.

@peachgreen
Is that legally correct? I could well be wrong, but I didn't think that was the case.

YABVU

I think it's nice to see Dads there getting involved. Too often we hear stories on here from women who's OH don't spend any time with the babies or don't care enough so I love seeing the Dads at baby groups. My DH came to one with us once and literally just spent the whole time watching DS and didn't even barely look around at the other woman or even care what they were doing. You should have more confidence in yourself, feeding your baby the most natural thing a woman can do it's amazing don't worry what others may think I bet most of the time they wouldn't even notice!

Bumpitybumper I don’t think that’s legally correct at all. I doubt any man would be comfortable with doing that either.

I think the OP realised her mistake quite early on in this thread, so from that perspective it has been helpful - but I would assume, from the things she wrote, she has other issues which may have led to her post. Having read all of this, those in favour banning men seem to be in a very small minority and nothing they have said has made me change my mind. I take on board their feelings and it is a real shame, but they cannot trump whether other people attend these groups. We all have feelings about things for various reasons but unfortunately those are our issues to deal with.

@JessicaWakefieldSV

People aren't shaming her, they are pointing out that it isn't on to demand men are excluded purely to accommodate your needs.

And why say there should be groups for mums and groups that include dads? There are! The OP says that she goes to groups for bfing mum's but what she wants to do is to turn the group's for dads too (which you support) into a mums only group.

That is what is unreasonable.

This is a really poor attitude and ignores the sexualisation by society, primarily by men, of women’s bodies. Particularly breasts.

Right but that's not going to change overnight is it? I fact I will be surprised if it has changed at all in the next decade.
The OP can't dictate who can attend a baby group because she feels uncomfortable breastfeeding in front of men. What will she do when she is in other other situations where men are present and her child needs fed?

The bottom line is, if you use a public space then you have to accept that others will be present. Male, female, trans, straight, gay, old, young, black, white, Christian, Muslim, Sikh, etc - public spaces are for everyone. If you’re not comfortable with a particular group of people for whatever reason then you don’t use the public space. You can’t demand that a group of people is banned from a public space just because you don’t want them there.

@bumpitybump Of course it's legally correct. The venue has a legal responsibility under the equality act to ensure access for disabled people. In this instance that requires a male carer to enter a single sex space. Nobody has a legal right to a single sex changing room in a gym.

Obviously male carers entering a female only space isn't the right solution - the venue should provide appropriate disabled changing areas.

@jessica It is indeed uncomfortable for the carer and ideally they, and the other women using the facility wouldn't be put in that position. But the disabled person's right to access the service trumps a woman's right to a single sex changing room.

People aren't shaming her

Yes they are. Not all, but yes. Repeatedly. ‘Get a grip’ for instance, is not helpful.

Nobody has a legal right to a single sex changing room in a gym.

Yes they do, it’s in the Equality Act.

@jessicawakefield No, it's not. The Equality Act has strict guidelines around when a space or service can be designated as single sex. If making a space single sex will have a negative impact on those excluded based on their protected characteristic, the impact on the female users needs to be shown to be greater than the impact on those excluded. In the case of a man accessing a rape shelter, this could well be the case. In this instance, it would not. The discomfort of women (who, in this instance, could choose to come back later / visit a different gym / change in a toilet cubicle) does not override the access rights of the disabled person (who would be entirely unable to access the service).

Again, I'm not arguing it's the right solution. It's not. The right solution is for venues to provide suitable disabled facilities. But where that isn't the case, the disabled person's access needs take priority.

Back to the OP.
So sorry OP about the empathy bypass in much of this thread. You are entitled (as we all are) to have your feelings and to ask for support. There are many women who struggle with breastfeeding in public - and as JessicaWakefieldSV has pointed out, there are competing needs and demands. You are not wrong and should not be made to feel ashamed of your feelings.
Hopefully you'll find some support over the next months.

So if my brother and his husband had baby you would not want him at Parent and baby groups??
I can assure you he would not be looking at your breasts!

The Equality Act has strict guidelines around when a space or service can be designated as single sex

Please show me where it indicates that a single sex facility has to allow men for disabled people. Please show me where the rights of the disabled person to access that space, override the single sex exemptions in the equality act. You’re just interpreting the law in your own way.

My DH would go along on 'daddy days' with DS1 and when DS2 came along he went with DS1 so that I could have a bit of a break. His employers allowed for flexible working especially after he birth of a baby/ special circumstances and encourage home office on such days.

That early anxiety of BF around others will eventually subside as your DC get more vocal and less patient. Your breasts are there primarily for their nourishment, and any level headed man or woman will appreciate that and won't bat an eyelid or will most likely just smile at you a little in way of encouragement.

@jessicawakefield That's not how the Equality Act works.

Spaces are dual-sex by default. So initially, the carer automatically has the legal right to access that space. Of course, the provider absolutely could designate the space single sex under the Equality Act that as it meets the conditions (which it does, as multiple women will be using it and could reasonably be considered to be uncomfortable with a man's presence).

But this is the provider's decision, not the users, and the provider's primary obligation is to provide adjustment for the disabled person.

A woman does not have a legal right to a single sex changing area in a private business. Providers do not legally have to offer single sex facilities. However, they DO have a legal obligation to make reasonable adjustments to allow disabled people to access their service. That doesn't mean they are obliged to allow male carers into the women's changing rooms. But if that's how they chose to make the reasonable adjustments for the disabled person, that's perfectly lawful.

I'm not saying it's ideal. But it's lawful.

Spaces are dual-sex by default

Not if they’re actually labelled as female/women male/men, as you’ll find in all gyms. If the gym chooses to admit men into the female changing rooms, that is one thing ( and they’d lose memberships over it ), but they’re not obliged to by law.

@peachgreen
I just don't understand how what you suggest would work in practice unless the changing areas had been clearly marked as unisex so women could make an informed decision about whether they wanted to get undressed if a man could legitimately walk in at any point. I've never seen such a set up in real life (a communal, open plan unisex changing room) and I can't imagine it would be particularly popular if it were to exist.

@jessica That's exactly what I'm saying. Under the Equality Act a provider is legally obliged to make adjustments for disabled customers. Even they have designated their changing rooms single sex (as they are entitled to do) they can still allow the disabled person's male carer access to the female changing room rooms if that's how they choose to make the adjustments. I agree they would lose business. But they do not have a legal obligation to offer single sex facilities.

@Bumpity I agree, it's far from an ideal solution and I imagine many would vote with their feet. Me included! But the fact remains that single sex spaces in private businesses are not legally protected whereas disability access rights are.