' Chronic overparenting'......is it something MNers recognize ?

[mozhe]

...and by that I mean the persistent/long term/almost obsessive preoccupation with providing ' perfection' for their DCs....

Do you think this is something you are prone to ?

Is it more likely to occur in parents of first/only children ?

More likely in previously high achieving SAHMS ?

And what do you understand by the term ' benign neglect ' ?

sorry, developed countries

Anna, I understand what youre saying. I was primarily taking issue with the fact that we manage to aquire luxury goods in the west through the sweat and blood of the women in poorer countries and somehow this is feminism . So a proffesional working western woman (whose company probably exploits women in the third world) gains status and profit from this imbalance because almost all business outsource to poorer countries these days. Then the same woman has the <span class="italic">audacity</span> to suggest that women who are comfortable raising children and cooking for their family and perhaps making their own clothes are somehow letting the side down. Its just ridiculous. As I say, I dont want a return to the 50s but lets be honest and look at it as it is.

Sakura - perhaps.

But actually what I find more interesting is that some women find status/achievement in working for money and employing other people to take care of their homes and families, whereas others find status/achievement in caring for their homes and families themselves.

I know my standard of living, and that of my family, would drop rather considerably were I to return to work full-time (though probably not if I work part-time - we shall see), since the considerable energy I put into managing my family life would be directed at paid employment and I cannot do both simultaneously to the best of my abilities. So my feeling of status/achievement is rather a lot greater now than it was when I worked full-time.

Other women feel differently and get more status/achievement out of filling their bank account than out of taking care of their family life.

And most women have no choice and have to do the best they can while both working full-time and being their family's primary carer.

Don't agree Sakura. mozhe said it all for me with - "Domesticity is not for many women....the tasks are often boring, endless and repetitive. A few genuinely like it, and they are probably the ones who are less cerebral.....most,( like me..), tryto get away with minimum effort, and hire in as much help as possible."

No one ever really chooses to cook and clean and mind children if they can afford to pay others to do it, whether they're rich tribal women in jungles, Victorian middle class women or women in 2007. it's just boring work people (men and women) will always try to fob off on to others and to bestow on it some kind of objective worthfulness just doesn't reflect what that domestic work actually is - dull and repetitive and I include in that holding a baby all day too. Now you might make a moral case that it is good for our soul to wipe the floor clean and then have the mother superior or your prison guard or communist leader mess it up again and make you repeat the exercise but it isn't objectively interesting or worthwhile. No I don't have any problems with paying others to do work I find boring.

I do like to cook and bake.

But if I could afford to pay someone to clean up the mess I would, tbh.

diagree Xenia. If I had all the money in the world I would still prefer to 'mind' my own children. Would probably pay someone to do the household chores to free up even more time to spend with the children.

But do you pay a babysitter to mind them so you can go out with your husband, awen?

Same thing, IMO.

No Have never paid a babysitter. Have left ds for an evening with my parents. Ds also see his dad fortnightly. If dp do go out tho I would only leave ds with family or friends.

Dont get me wrong he has gone to nursery etc when I was working, right now I am SAHM. DGiven the choice I would always prefer to care for ds than pay for someone to have him. I also do enjoy cooking/baking. The cleaning doesnt rock my boat tho

"No one ever really chooses to cook and clean and mind children if they can afford to pay others to do it".

Xenia - I just can't agree with that statement. I have far too many examples of women with that choice around me who choose to take care of their homes and families themselves. In fact, IME, the women with the very most education (who are most secure in themselves) find it easiest to make that choice.

It is not a status symbol or a pleasure or a preference for all women to subcontract the domestic sphere.

Not all women, even if they have the brains and energy to do so, want simultaneously to have high-earning jobs, multiple children and lots of domestic staff. That lifestyle is not aspirational for many, many people. It is one, possible, lifestyle of very many. Thank goodness that we have the choice to also reject it.

Also, what a hassle to police domestic staff!

Bane of my mother's existence when we were young.

expat - completely agree, managing a whole complement of domestic staff is a lot of very dull work. Often easier just to DIY.

My grandmother (a very cerebral woman) had about 15 house staff for years. She was just so relieved when my grandfather retired, they all returned to England, and she could return to just one maid (for a household of 5 adults and 5 children).

My mother is down to one maid just 3 times/week and the man who comes to mow the lawns once a week.

I just hate having people in my house. I always group domestic outsourcing on one day - ie cleaning lady/window cleaner/grocery deliveries/plumber all on same morning so that we have our space all to ourselves as much as possible. I find it incredibly limiting for family life if there are domestic staff around (no nudity, far less laughter etc).

Mozhe I don't say you're trolling because you disagree with me.

I say you're trolling because you deliberately insult and belittle many many women on these boards by implying that they are stupid because they have chosen to be SAHMs. That is not in the spirit of mumsnet and imo is trolling.

You may disagree with their choice, but implying that the are "less cerebral" (ie stupid) because they have made it, is not disagreeing, it's flaming.

As you well know.

Anna I thought I would hate having someone in my house but it's amazing how you get used to it !!!

I have a live in Filipino lady (who has now become part of the family really) and I'm a SAHM . She does most of my domestic work leaving me to spend my time with the children, do a bit of voluntary work and cook (which I love).

Xenia you are mistaken again. I have plenty of money and I don't have a nanny I do have someone to come in during the week to do housework but only because my house is too big for me to do it all alone, I still have to do plently myself. I could afford to go shopping all day and have lunch with my friends but I prefer to spend time with my dd. Some of us actually enjoy being around our children

We also had someone living with us the entire time we lived in S. America. You do get used to it - but we never ran round naked in the house, anyway.

Yes we save that for the weekends

McDreamy - some people do and some people don't.

My sister had a live in Filipina when she lived in Spain and became very ill (clinically depressed) because of it.

My sister and I have very similar personalities.

Xenia - it may be dull at times but as a highly educated SAHM, I love it.

I do everything at home, kids, cleaning (not very well) and ironing (occasionally get someone in when it mounts up), all finance, admin etc..., fundraising for the school. More than enough to keep my mind occupied and I can still read a book now and then

But both DH and I as neglected and unloved kids in some ways want better for our kids. DH works hard and goes away sometimes and someone needs to be around to make sure we don't miss things with the kids. Its only a short time, I will work again - the acquisition of money and status is not the only important thing in the world.

Just because you made the decision to work don't have a go at others who didn't. Personally I would never make value judgements about other people who made different decisions. You protest to much I think, maybe the work/life balance in Xenia's household isn't as rosy as portrayed

Of course Anna I realise that - I have a friend here who couldn't even have a cleaner in her home. I'm just very surprised at how quickly I adjusted!!

I enjoy cleaning because I can do it while also thinking about things, talking on the phone, chatting with the children....

I do find it demoralising when it immediately gets messed again. Having a cleaner for two hours a week helps my state of mind loads, so I am not the only one fighting the battle against the dirt.

I love being with the children but I would like more breaks and 'me time'. It is hard work.

I am well provided for but I'm looking forward to making my own money in the future, for my own satisfaction.

In the meantime I want to be the one who plays/ teaches/ ignores my children, I want to be there if they are sick, meander them to and from school etc.

My sister has a fantastic career and because I am at home, her children can come to me if they are sick. In a family it's good if there is someone who is always available and always there. If there is no slack then everything is just far too stressfull.

I think it's a valuable role.

I hate housework, but as a SAHM it's part of the deal. Also we don't all live in a metropolis bursting with cheap domestic labour and stimulating 'cerebral' careers. Many, many SAHMs are complete bores whose one aim in life is to help out at school or hang round soft play centres, but there are a few out here who have a brain cell left but have made a life choice. Must go now: I have to pick up DD from playschool and listen to the other mums talking about strained spinach...

'Many, many SAHMs are complete bores whose one aim in life is to help out at school or hang round soft play centres, but there are a few out here who have a brain cell left but have made a life choice. '

Yes, because we all know that anyone who does that is just a thick, boring gobsh*&.

[rolls eyes]

Maybe they like doing that. Maybe some of us can't afford to make a 'life choice' like that and stay home because they can't afford to go back to work.

People with brain cells actually use them to consider such possibilities among others rather than just brand them all a load of brain donors.