4 yo keeps really hurting baby brother

[Verrie69]

My 4 yo has witnessed some violence from his father and has always been shy and more of an introvert from this he started school this year and he seems to have got much better he saw someone for 12 weeks when his father was arrested and that was the longest they could give him especially as he had improved. My baby boy is 3 months and is really hard work he cries and cries and there's nothing wrong with him I can't always cuddle him and I don't enjoy sitting cuddling him when he's screaming and doesn't stop. I let him calm in his crib and I take myself away for a bit as I find it very hard im unsure if my eldest has sort of seen how i am finding it hard when he cries but he tends to hurt baby his dad was never around for the baby so he can't have seen from his dad. But my 3 mo has had scratches and little pinch bruises on him when questioned he always admits he did it but since I've been telling him off for it he lies. It's also so simple to say oh never leave them alone they are along when I go to the toilet or have a bath if baby is crying I cannot have him in the same room after i have tried everything so he is alone then too although that is easier as I keep eldest distracted also yesterday they stayed at neighbours house after a bit of an emergency and he had come home with more marks the neighbour looked at me really oddly and said that "your baby needs to see a doctor" really rudely i think she completely judged me and I don't know what she was implying I just don't know how to solve this

There must be a reason he is crying all the time Verrie, even if he seems healthy. Does he have trapped wind that's painful for him? Would swaddling him make him feel more secure and comforted?

I would always take your older son in the loo with you or when you need “two minutes alone” . If you are stressed and need some peace have your 4 yr old watch an age appropriate movie where you are, tell him you need some “peaceful time”he could use an iPad and headphones. Keep him close to you then he won’t feel rejected for the baby.

You can’t leave them alone together when your eldest is a danger to your baby.

Why did you have to leave them with a neighbour that you dont know very well?

Having a newborn and a toddler/pre schooler with very little help or support is incredibly difficult. As others have said your 4 year old is probably acting on his jealous feelings towards his brother if he takes a lot of your attention. Some babies do just cry a lot in the early months but it is important to get a doctor to check him over to make sure his brother has not hurt him or there is no underlying health problem.

Your 4 year old obviously witnessed your exes violent behaviour and this has seriously affected him so I would ask the doctor to refer him to some kind of assistance as 12 weeks was obviously not enough. Do you have any family who can help? While it is difficult not to take your neighbours comment as judgement on your parenting I think she was doing it as concern for your baby and you need help so try to take it in the spirit it was intended. Concern and quite rightly if he has bruises and marks on him. You are worried too so don't isolate yourself further. Having someone who could watch the baby for an hour while you get time to yourself while your 4 year old is at school could be a life saver for you.

I agree that you should not leave them alone together. Take the baby with you into the bathroom or kitchen and put him in a bouncy chair. When the baby is asleep try and get some one on one time with your eldest. Zero tolerance for violent behaviour by taking away things he likes like TV time or whatever. Praise him when he does something nice for you or his brother. Does the baby sleep in a crib or are you having to co sleep?

If you really are struggling with coping contact social services. My son in law is a social worker and they have support there which does not mean taking your children away. They are there to help you. Same goes for health visitor.

Does your baby ever sleep? Could you carry him into the bathroom in his Moses basket while he naps and have your bath then? 2 mins isn’t anywhere near long enough to have a bath so it’s either longer than that or it’s so short that I can’t see what you get out of it. Are there any baby groups nearby where you could go and have a cup of tea while your 4 year old plays safely?

So sorry this sounds awful

You sound as though you're at the end of your tether, and I really feel for you, but you really can't take the risk of leaving your 2 boys together.
Not whilst the 4yo is hurting the baby.

Do you have any lockable rooms to leave baby in, whilst it in the toilet, etc, as a last resort if you really can't take one of them with you?

I volunteered with HomeStart for 7 yrs. They're a fab charity, doing great work, but underfunded in many areas, so although I'm pretty sure you can self refer (or ask GP ir HV to refer you), they may have a waiting list.

It's essential to have this support put in place as soon as possible, so start by talking to your GP, tell him what you've said here, and how much you're struggling to cope.

Good luck, and don't forget, you've taken the 1st step already, by admitting that there's a problem. That's often the hardest thing to do.

One mum I supported, did actually just need time for herself and I spent time with the children whilst she had a bath, or got on with some other things. It really helped her to have a few hours 2x a week to herself, as she also had no other support.

I hope things work out for you, but please get it sorted asap. Speak to someone today.

I don’t have informed advice for you, but I just wanted to reassure you that sometimes older siblings react this way despite parents’ best efforts to prepare for and introduce the new baby according to expert advice.
My mum and dad did everything by the book when expecting me, but my 4.5 year old older brother was extraordinarily jealous. My mum caught him several times trying to hurt me, smacking me, swinging me too hard in a swinger etc.
She did tell him that it was okay if he didn’t always like me but that he must never, never hurt me. I’m not sure it worked but I survived.
Other people will offer you strategies, but I just wanted to sympathise and share that I know that you can be a great and thoughtful parent and take the greatest pains with this, and still have your eldest react very badly. She had to watch him like a hawk around me.
Good luck getting some support, you must be so drained and demoralised.
Does the baby have signs of reflux or possible intolerance symptoms? A lot of people struggle on with miserable babies only to find there are underlying issues. Other people rave about cranial osteopathy.
When my youngest was a baby, she had to have lots of awful medical procedures including daily chest physio, oral and nasal suction and the like. I really thought she would be psychologically damaged for life, however she is the happiest girl. Don’t think that this will be forever.

Have you considered that baby is crying because they are tired? Sounds patronising but you said he rarely naps, some babies won't fall asleep when tired and need help. He should only be staying awake for about 1-1.45 hours right now, he could be massively overtired.

I found that if you catch baby to early or too late for a nap I have a massive struggle, even if he's exhausted.

Hi Verrie, how are you doing? I hope you managed to get your GP appointment. Not sure if someone has mentioned this but social work departments have emergency crisis phone lines. If you are struggling to the point of breaking, which sadly you might be, call them. They might take the kids in to emergency **temporary care where they would be looked after whilst you build yourself back up. There is absolutely no shame doing this. You would also get support from a social worker. Please consider this. Children are 24/7 and it is impossible to care for them if you are in crisis. Just Google your local council and emergency social care. You are on here seeking advice and that is a positive thing.

OP can you not go for a bath when the children are asleep?

I've never managed a daytime bath when either of mine were little.

Hope you got an appointment.

How are you OP?

Did you get a doctors appointment?

Also about the pinching if his pinching hard enough to bruise skin he could full well break a bone baby's bones are very very fragile as they are still soft. Please take the advice you've been given I hope things sort themselves out in time for you

Hi again ive got a telephone appointment for 4:30 tomorrow

What area are you in ? If your close to me I don't mind helping you out but you got to see the bigger picture of the baby's safety over the baths atm, I think everyone's just really worried about all three of you my previous posts to you have been a bit harsh I apologise for that. But I do hope you will be alright. I'm in south London/Surrey

OP please be totally honest with them tomorrow.

Yes it's pinches and lite scratches because he's only 4 but what happens when he's 6 or 8 or 12. It won't just stop because you want it to.

If you're having to repeatedly leave your young baby crying because you cannot deal with him then again, you need support and help. Not judging but I don't think the amount you need toeave him is a reflection of you being in a good place. He's crying because he needs something, he isn't doing it to hurt you. And 4 yo is also acting out because he needs something and is struggling in his own way, he needs help to stop doing this.

OP if you need two minutes then you HAVE to make sure the boys are separated.

Baby in the cot in his room. 4 Yr old in front of the telly /tablet. Door to bedroom closed even if you have to get an extra lock too high for him to reach.
It takes longer than 2 minutes to run a bath, strip, get in, get out, get dry and dressed so I wonder just how long they're actually alone. Perhaps two minutes needs to be sat in the loo with a hot drink. Bath to relax when they're alseep

Hi there OP,
We're so sorry to hear you're feeling so low and we do hope you find the strength to reach out for help in real life.

We hope you don't mind, but when these threads are flagged up to us we usually add a link to our Mental Health resources - here www.mumsnet.com/webguide/mental-health. Support from other Mumsnetters is great and we really hope you will be able to take some comfort from your fellow posters, but as other MNers will tell you, it's really a good idea to seek RL help and support as well.

We also like to remind everyone that, although we're awed daily by the astonishing support our members give each other through life's trickier twists and turns, we'd always caution anyone never to give more of themselves to another poster, emotionally or financially, than they can afford to spare.
Very best wishes to you, OP.
MNHQ

Hi Verrie, well done for coming on here and posting and being so brave. I would massively recommend church, if you have a salvation army near you or a new life church they are especially good at offering practical help, and support. This stage of life is tough enough, without all you are going through. You should also be able to be referred to support for abuse survivors through the gp. There's loads of kind oeople in the world who want to help others. I know it must be awful trying to know who to trust after all you've been through. Have a look on Facebook for a local mother and baby group, being out of the house somewhere baby is entertained can feel like a bit of a rest too. All the best. You can do this, in the future you'll look back and be so proud that you got through all of this for your little ones.

I was always told if the baby's crying and you are at the end of your tether:
Put the baby in his cot carefully.
Make sure they are safe.
Close the door and go to another room.
So take the 4 yrs old eithyou.

Hi Verrie I've not had chance to read the whole thread so apologies if I repeat anything. You have your hands full and I feel for you. I have a two year old and 3 month old and my two year old used to try and hit, pull hair, throw toys etc at baby. There was no way I could leave them alone. I always put baby in her chair and lock her in conservatory when I need two mins to do something. When upstairs she lays in cot sometimes with door shut. Unfortunately there is no chance of a shower unless I get up at 5.30
and both are asleep.

If baby has been checked and not physically hurt, it sounds like he just wants comfort from you, a sling would be ideal. Can you try and get big bro involved safely? When saying no to my dd1 wasn't working I started trying to involve her more, asking her to sing to baby sister, to poke her tongue out, gently tickle etc to get a reaction from baby. Once she started realising baby reacted back with a smile, her little face would light up and gradually she started doing nice things for her instead of trying to hurt her. I also explained how once baby can crawl/walk they can play together at the park etc.. this approach helped so much. She hardly ever attempts to hurt her now but I'd still never leave them alone.

Try as much as you can to give your older lad some one on one time, no doubt all he is hearing is no, don't do that etc.. praise him loads and give lots of positive gestures if you can

Hope you can get things sorted

Posted too soon.
I had new born and 4 yrs old know how you feel.
I'd put 4 yrs old in room behind the chair gate - she's safe.
Baby would be in bath room with me in carry cot or baby bouncer.

My friend had 2 boys close together- 19 months and the elder was very jealous.
He would pinch his brother.
In their thirties now.
Totally devoted to each other.
Sadly the most dangerous thing to s baby is a toddler.
You've got a shit hand at he moment op.
Sleep deprived. Hormonal.
No support.
I found babies very difficult.
But this phase passes and it get so much easier.
Try and do some serious one to
One with the bigger child.
Good luck x

OP you are absolutely neglecting both of your children and safeguarding is a huge issue here. The 4 year old who clearly needs supervision and support and the newborn who is being scratched, pinched and bitten and needs to be kept safe.
You have taken your HV advice of '2 minutes me time' far too literally and as a result are allowing your newborn to be hurt to who knows what degree.
Do you have any other support or help? You need to get in touch with your HV, Midwife and or GP and do it now before someone gets seriously hurt.

Oh and stay out of the bloody bath! Either wait until they're both asleep or master the 3 minute shower that all parents end up subscribing to.

Break it down into little steps OP & you can turn this situation around. You’ve already got an appt for tomorrow so that’s the first thing done. Just get through tomorrow, last school day, try and relax & walk with baby before school pick up, have a bath together maybe?
Then tell the doctor everything & emphasise how much you need help to stop your DS hurting the baby.
That’s quite a big step forward - hopefully you’ll get good advice from the GP & some people to call or something. Then come back on here tomorrow, tell us how it went & we’ll give you some ideas of how to get through the weekend.
Small steps but it will get better x

Op I'm concerned that you haven't got a doctor to physically check your baby for injuries. The constant crying along with young child being aggressive towards him is very worrying.