"We shouldn't tell new parents what life is like after the birth, it'll only scare them"...

[fillyjonk]

said a high-ranking NCT co-volunteer to me today

I think this is crappy on so many levels

If we can prepare women for the birth, an intense and highly subjective experience, then SURELY we can prepare them for life with a newborn. Breastfeeding classes (and I mean a proper in depth course, NOT a half hour slotted into the NCT classes, tricks for soothing a screaming baby, a proper discussion of depression/isolation etc etc after birth...NONE of these are really covered properly in NCT classes, let alone NHS classes.

Oh I dunno, what do you all think?

I think people have such differing experiences after birth, that no one can prepare for it before hand.

I had a terrible traumatic birth and I still cry when I think about it, everything went wrong and it was the polar opposite to what I wanted, but I was lucky that despite this DD was born healthy.

Apparently that should lessen my chance of breastfeeding but as I didn?t know that I pushed though the early bad latches, pain and cracked nipples and damm well made it work as I thought I should be able to breastfeed. If I had been told earlier that a traumatic birth usually goes hand in hand with a failure to breastfeed, I think I would have given up. As it is I am breastfeeding DD still at 9.5 months and loving it.

I read that a lot of ladies have a nightmare first six weeks with their newborn, but I really enjoyed the first six weeks being home with my DD.

I remember her not sleeping much, the pain of breastfeeding, gel packs for my 3% tear stitches and I had a tally chart to keep my drugs intake straight (I was on 5/6 different type of pills).

I was tired, in pain and luckily totally in love with my DD. I could not get over how beautiful and wonderful she was (PFB ) I also had my DH and DM to help me out for the first 3 weeks which helped a lot, at that point the physical pain was a lot less and I could cope home alone.

I think parenting a newborn is a very incredible life changing experience which can not be planned or taught and has to be lived.

Good luck to all the mums to be

What I still haven't managed to grasp is when you guys say "you don't have time for a wee, nevermind cooking/showering" etc what do you mean?

I mean, when you say you don't have time for a wee, is it because the baby is screaming constantly? is it because you have so much housework to doand therefore you're too busy? is it because they're constantly on the boob and you can't put them down to have time to go?

To clarify, this is a genuine question, I'm NOT implying any part of being a new parent is or should be easy, and I'm certainly not anticipating it being a breeze.

And please, no "hohoho, you'll see!" kind of answers, I'm sure I will, but right now I'd just like to know.

My ds is 14 mths now so its very hard to remember the practicalities of why having a quick shower/ pee/rest etc was so hard. But the fact is it was, and its not just a physical thing (screaming baby, time to feed, nappy change etc) but a big part of it, for me at least, was emotional. You cant know what its like til you have the baby. You feel tied, guilty for doing anything to upset the balance (it seemed like my ds was only calm if i was in close proximity)
So a shower, for example: Id have to shower whilst he slept, if i left him in his moses basket in, say, the living room, he may wake up and sense i wasnt there, cue a screaming baby and me having to hop out of the shower with hair full of shampoo and he may not settle again for hours throwing any plans into disaray. Or if i brough him into the bathroom the noise of the water would wake and upset him!
I thought exactly the same as you, how hard can it be? but no matter what anyone says to you, you cant know, you just cant.
The emotion involved, the guilt, the fear are things that hit you like a truck and they have a huge effect on you.
Your currently baby free brain may be able to put all these things into perspective, but you dont know the tricks that that same brain will soon be playing on you!

{smile]

I'll try not to be too 'hahaha you'll soo find out'

You don't have time because a first baby takes up a crazy amount of your time. First time round, unless you have a lot of previous experinece of dealing with tiny babies, or oddles of help from family/nannies etc you will spend a massive amount of your time dealing with the needs of your new child. Even getting out of the house will take planning previously only considered worthy of a trip across the Andies single handed.

You will have more washing than you have ever seen in your life. A small baby can producemore washing than a house full of adults.

They need 'stuff', nappies, washing powder, more washing powder, bibs, more wahing powder, all of which will run out at the most inconvenient moments.

They wil cry, what seems like all the time, and you have to comfort. My dd (who is now a delightful 10 year old) would only stop crying if you held her standing up! And this lasted for the first 6 weeks. She would also only sleep if I held her (or dh).

And unless you have masses of experience, you will jump at every squark and whimper.....which is as nature inteneded.

You will spend ages doing crazy sfuff like 'playing' with 6 week olds! I used to play under the baby gym with mine! WTF?????

You will not believe how much time and effort this little baby will take.

And then you have a second, and will wonder what on earth took you so long over the first! Because a massive proportion of the time you spend first time round is actually self inflicted, because we all lack confidence and expereinec.

Second time round you will 'know' when a cry is just a minutes 'grumble' before the baby drops off to sleep. Fist time, baby will be offered boob, changed, patted, petted and played with. Second time you tend to let them get on with it a bit as you deal with your toddler who is reducing your home to its component atoms!

Just wanted to thank both of you for your honest and non-patronising answers! I do understand a bit more now, I didn't realise emotions/guilt were so much a part of it.

To be honest I'd been imagining carting him round the house in a sling and managing to get on with things a bit that way (not immediately, I mean after a week or two of babymooning) and thought he'd probably be fine for five minutes on the bathroom floor in his bouncy chair while I had a quick scrub etc

I suppose I will just have to wait and see, and hope it won't be too bad!

I dunno, I always did have time for a pee.
But then I would take ds into the loo with me, place him lovingly on the bathmat, and get on with it.
I can't believe I bothered but at the time I didn't think he could be left alone. [nuts]

DD practically lived in her sling from a few weeks old when we bought one...They make everything so much easier. Well, Allows you to go to the toilet, stand rocking without your arms dropping off, cook tea and do minimal housework and washing without putting down the baby.

Showers. I brought moses basket into the bathroom after baby was changed and fed and happy in the morning. Showered as quickly as possible. Seemed to work most of the time.

Though we had those days usually during growth spurts when all I had done by 5pm was feed/change baby and had a couple of wees for me and my DH would say but what have you DONE all day

Some of it is due to inexperience. First time mothers often generate a huge amount of laundry because they can't tolerate the sight of a small amount of milk on their baby's outfit. Second time around, they'd have to be stinking before they'd change the clothes. And a crying baby can make a tired mother distraught in minutes. It's as if their cry is hot wired to some particularly sensitive part of the brain.

i just don't get why its an either/or care/information, nkf.

I am completely on board for every mother having a doula and a home help, say. Faboulous.

This isn't going to happen in the near future. it just isn't. we can't even get 1 midwife-1 woman. So I am thinking through the other options. I also repeat that IMO and IME having an idea of what to expect does mean you might be able to arrange some sort of help/plan your life to make it easier, etc.

There are lots of books out there on childbirth ALSO. But a lot of people people STILL go to classes. I reiterate that if a class can be given on birth, which is a highly subjective and individual experience, then it should be possible on newborn care, which is much more homogenous ime.

This woman really was saying "don't tell the mothers the truth, even if they ask, you'll only scare them and thats not fair". I was there, and the conversation DID develop so that is definately what she was saying. I just can't get on board with that. I mean, aside from anything else, if someone asks you a question its POLITE to give them the truth.

I have 16 month dd and also find it hard to remember why I didn't have any time to wee/ shower/ cook / get dressed - after all, she spent alot of time asleep in those early days. I think i just couldn't leave her alone. even when she was asleep she was either in my arms or by my side. Oh, and there were the visitors! All that tea making. And presents, which required bloody thank you cards - how ungrateful I sound, but exactly how i felt. We are now thinking about having a 2nd baby, and I am a bit scared to go through it again. Will it be easier next time? Or am I kidding myself?

I don't think it's an either/or. I think right now there's plenty of information but not enough care. I know that I, for one, was overloaded with information. Penelope Leach, leaflets from the midwives, friends etc.

As to home help/doula, you're right. It'll be a long time maybe never before we get that on the NHS. But on a private basis, some people spend like lunatics when they're pregnant. Hundreds, even thousands on baby equipment. I honestly think most of the time they'd be better off borrowing the material things and spending the money on a doula.

part of what makes it harder now, is that we don;t have the extended family or community vibe happening as often

when i had DS i had to go back to work when he was 6 months old, i had no friends with babies, no time to make friends, severe PND and was having a horrible time...parents 50 miles away and working full time too

this time, I have not had to go back to work, my parents are more available, we moved to a more family orientated part of town, and therefore are surrounded by friends with children of a similar age...we are all in and out of each others houses all the time...minding each others children, lending clothes, doing favours....much more helpful and takes so much pressure off

when i had DD, i had a road full of people doing stuff for us..and my MIL and mum were around..which meant i could enjoy my baby..whilst DS was looked after, and the shopping was done, the cooking was done, and i had less stress

but that seems to be an exception. rather than a rule

more mums have to go back to work, have no time to forge these important links, and feel unsupported and alone

the sense of isolation can be devastating, especially when you have no one to compare your experience to

society seems to expect women to bounce back from pregnancy and birth, and to be back in charge, doing everyrhing they were doing previously , there are no brownie points for staying in your pyjamas for 6 weeks , nursing your baby and being on a babymoon.....but there is for being back in your pre pregnancy jeans, with an immaculate house and a home cooked meal on the table every day

we need to give ourselves, and each other a break, and permission to wallow in new motherhood

look, is anyone actually saying that, if a new parent asks what life is like after the birth, we should sugar coat it? Thats what REALLY got me going.

I do think there should be better information pre birth, if only because it can't hurt.

on reflection, i think having someone talk about pnd is a good idea. 20% of women are DIAGNOSED with pnd, god only knows what the real figures are. I think everyone else can cope with being a bit freaked out if it means more women seek help. You never know, THEY might experience pnd in subsequent pregnancies.

Am tempted to post this in "pregnancy" and see what replies I get.

i don;t think so, but i do have to concur with , i think elasticwoman who said, something like, you say why didn;t you tell me what it was really like, and then realsie that people did try to tell you but you woldn;t believe it

and couldn;t agree more re the PND issue

once i had come out of my ashamedness at having it, and talked to my friends,i would say all bar two had had PND to some degree or other, but as no-one talks about it, they thought it was normal, or didn;t want to bother anyone

I think that good, honest, information placed in context is absolutly vital.

Life post baby isn't all aromatherapy candles and organic tofu. Neither is it all barbed wire and hemlock.

Mothers to be are adult and need appropriate information.

When mt dd was about 6 months old I did a factastic parenting course. It was run in the local M and T group, but covered everything, including dealing with teenagers.

Something like that before the birth would have been fantasic.

Honest information was given in an open environment where questions were welcomed, and no-one was 'dictated to' But it was honest, and was run by mums who had already 'been through it all'. I found it and increadably helpful thing

Filly - I don't think anyone is saying that. I'm certainly not. It's just who does the telling and how and when that is interesting to discuss.

"once i had come out of my ashamedness at having it, and talked to my friends,i would say all bar two had had PND to some degree or other, but as no-one talks about it, they thought it was normal, or didn;t want to bother anyone "

god that is so accurate

I whinge to people about what life was like after dd's birth (I wasn't diagnose with anything but no one checked, I still have no idea really, looking at emails I wrote then does kind of shock me). And SO often people say, OMG, me too, I thought I was the only one. I SEE women going through this with class supporty stuff, but its so hard to broach the subject (I do my best, but its hard to get it right).

Agree with mb, thats exactly whats needed. or pruni's idea. Maybe every pg woman could spend a morning helping out with a young baby? (actually I'm kind of serious)

haven't read the whole thread...But in my opinion this are the truths no one says:

[1] Contractions really hurt

[2] The first 3 months for a first time mother are hell.

[3] Fellow mums lie sometimes.

[4] Relationships with partners change a lot for good and bad.

a lot of your ideas would come back to the community/ family thing again, filly...after all, a doula is just a woman who has had her babies and wants to support other women....just how a grandmother or auntie in a community would support the other women....

problem is, if the NHS employed doulas, especially birth doulas, we would be bound by NHS protocols, not always A Good Thing, for bitrth...

Flilly, the course I went on was almost a reacreation of sitting round with older women, drinking tea and discussion life, in ye olde village setting.

I got to talk about the nuts and bolts of parenting with women who had already been through the mill. They were honest, honest about their failures as well as the sucesses. And they were clear that there were no magic answers.

Rather like reading MN I suppose.

Something like that, with women who'd had a wide range of birth experiences, would have been first rate. And also with women who'd had 'the baby from hell', the deleivery from hell, PND, just plain old struggled. And to see that they come out the other side would have been so helpful.

I lived 10 hours drive from my family. I had no hands on support. Things like this help to fill the gap.

Pretending that is all wonderful just ends up conning women and making them feel failures when it isn't all roses

yes exactly, mb, that is what i had in mind, a non-virtual MN IYKWIM. oh a COMMUNITY, thats it

after ds was born i did a simialr course, run by the local school of lentil weavery, and it was very good. And because people were HONEST, I made actual friends, which was rather useful

lulu, agree re doulas/nhs. there is a problen though if a good percentage of women can't access them. There are a LOT of women who would really struggle to find the money for a doula-most women I know DIDN'T spend £1000s on murals and cot bumpers. For me, that does need to be addressed.

tbh I am not sure that I would want a doula anyway, it would feel too close to hired help. And what if we didn't click? Sorry.

What made it helpful to me was that these women were quite a bit older than most of my friends. Had I sat with friends it would have been a bit of a case of the blind leading the blind. These women had grown up kids, but crucially, they were not my mother!!!!

So I could take advice from them without feeling patronised or infantalised. And dd got looked after by a lovely group of Grannies in the creche. It was fantastic.

It was a church run thing but wasn't evangelical.

re doulas..some charge a sliding scale of fees and prices vary according to where you are

also there is a hardship fund that can be applied for if on a low income, as doulas are meant to be accessible to all

and the a big part of having a doula, is having a familiar face there when you are in labour...so if you didn't click, you would not take her on as your doula

i can think of few times in a woman's life when 'hired help' would be more necessary than during late pregnancy, labour and delivery..

but chacun a son gout , and all that !!

but the idea of someone to mother you , when you have just had a baby is so lovely....

honestly, lm, i have worked with groups of women who really NEEDED doulas. Think 17 yo care leavers on their second child, with all their friends taunting them about even considering breastfeeding.

They have no way of affording it. Also, IME, they have no AWARENESS of doulas being avalible.

Doulas would need to be free, probably NHS organised, to reach this group, IMO. But WHAT a difference a good doula could make.

i understand

there have been one or two pilot studies of volunteer doulas, who have worked for sure start, to make sure the women who really need the support, can get it..one scheme was definitely in hull... i have a letter drafted to send to our local sure start, for when i have a moment !!

i cannot afford to work for free/ expenses only all the time, but certainly would like to do it some of the time.