I agree with every word of this article about the ideal of parenting

[margoandjerry]

In the times today

except that I wouldn't bother to explain why I was screaming.

For me, this kind of behaviour from my dad was scary. Therefore I believe that it is scary for my son.

I may be wrong. In his 2 year old head he may be ruefully shaking his head and thinking 'dear, if slightly naughty, mummy' or laughing gleefully and thinking 'doesn't she look crazy'.

I just don't think so. I think it frightens him. I don't want to frighten my two year old son. I'm not sure what else he gets from it.

Am boring myself now. Back to work...

What do kids learn from out of control screaming and shouting? They learn that a. normal, nice people, CAN be pushed too far and b. that this is NOT the end of the world, life will resume (it did for me) and c. This is actually NOT good behavior, it needs an apology and appropriate behaviour afterwards (eg talking it through)

I don't know if its good for kids per se, but I certainly don't think its bad

I also think its a matter of degree. Of COURSE. And its NOT ok to leave your kids walking along a motorway, not at ALL. The woman needed some anger management classes quite seriously, I think.

If you are, daily, bashing kids toys against a wall and screaming then yes, you could perhaps do with chatting to someone. But anger per se is not child abuse. It just isn't.

fillyjonk, agree with all of your work here.

yes agree an apology can go a long way to making things better.

Have you changed your mind then margoandjerry because in your OP you said you wouldnt bother to explain?

of course children are a bit scared when their parents scream and shout - what would you rather chocolatedot, that they learned to become unaffected by it?

I also think there is a mahoosive differece between snapping at your child, losing your temper or losing it to the degree of smashing toys or dumping them on the side of the road.

Wise words Fillyjonk.

Adult and child tantrums tend to get the same treatment here. Sporadic outbursts are vaguely ignored by everyone, major blow-outs with good cause are eventually treated on all sides with some sympathy and understanding and major blow-outs without good cause require a graceful apology (from adults) or a quiet return to reasonable behaviour (from children).

DH can be a bit shouty and so can I. Sometimes it seems appropriate, sometimes not, but the DDs are always remarkably gracious if we apologise for inappropriate shoutiness (it's only ever the volume not the content that's inappropriate). In fact, there is something rather touching about a child gravely and sincerely forgiving a parent for the odd lapse in behaviour.

Enid, I am just talking about shouting at my children in anger. They are very obviously not scared by this - why would they be? They know I love them, that I won't hurt them and that I will calm down almost immediately. What I think they do feel is upset and regret that their fighting or whatever it is has got so bad that it has visibly upset me. They are always very aplogetic.

Actually ds1 just loves being shouted at- really loves it- to the point it reinforces behaviour. I have had to learn to be outwardly calm which is good, and I can usually manage even if muttering to yself. I rarely feel utter rage these days as we have been taught so many strategies for dealing with challenging behaviours. I also try to build in frequent short breaks during difficult times (e.g this summer I am going to try and wangle a few hours each week without any children at all- these plans tend to go wrong but I'll try- 6 weeks of severe autism would send me basket case).

Also in Mrgoandjeyy's OP, I assume she was referring not to screaming at her children but the journalist's advice to get out of the car and scream into the distance.

yes, I agree with that chocodot. Sorry but I found the toy stories really horrible - ok perhaps I put too great an emphasis on it - but I stood in the kitchen just now and really imagined having a row with dd2 and taking one of her toys and smashing it up - I just could never, never do it! It would completely change the dynamic of our relationship - it would be utterly alien to me. Mind you I don't smack either

I don't smack either. I also can't imagine smashing a toy up but then again, I have no money or health worries, have a wonderful husband and 3 healthy well behaved children. Perhaps if any of those things were different, I might potentially succumb to GBH on the occassional soft toy.

Actually soapbox in my case I do sometimes scream like a banshee when upset and usually regret it.

I also NEVER get upset if ds has a tantrum as I can understand EXACTLY why he feels like he does and always treat him with respect and patience when he has one. The things I tend to lose it with him for are more the ongoing irritating/going on about things stuff which often comes on top of a bad day.

I can honestly say I have NEVER punished or lost my temper with ds over a tantrum and he has had quite few (though seems to be growing out of them a bit). I don't generally give him what he is asking for but I aways give him my full attention (i.e never ignore or punish), sympathise with how he is feeling and wait it out with periodic offers of a cuddle. Sometimes this takes an hour or so. We then talk how he felt afterwards.

As a result my 2.5 year old ds is generally outgrowing tantrums and will often tell me he is feeling upset, angry or will come and say to me 'I'm OK now mummy' if he has had a period of being grumpy for no discernable reason.

I am pretty good at dealing with tantrums as I have them myself often enough .

agree chocolatedot

i have relatively few stresses on my life, really. I have worked my whole adult life with people who have NOTHING. Asylum seekers, women bringing up families on not much per week, or worse. No one is hitting me, no one is shouting at me, we are quite broke by national average terms but there is a WORLD of difference between that and not knowing where the next meal for the kids is coming from.

I had a piss poor example of anger management as a child BUT really, have had a fairly easy time of it as an adult, and have worked through it, mainly.

So I am not under stress generally and manage to treat my children kindly, and with respect, most of the time

I also feel utterly unable to critcise others, because i have not walked in their shoes.

Just to clarify - I dont smack either and I dont put my dd out on the motorway or whatever when she's being hard work in that car (thanks for kind comparison tho) I dont have any money or health worries that would cause my actions - I'm just an everyday kind of mother and no matter how many time the horror that was MonkeyBagGate (thankyou mcnoodle!) is mentioned
, you still won't convince me I committed some heinous atrocity. I'm over it, it happened, that's it. I don't expect my dd to pen a book about the horror of it in 20 years time or anything! I can't believe it is still being referred to. It's insane!

Enid, if you read the article the woman is talking about getting out of the car and going off and screaming to let off frustration into thin air not into the kids' faces. It's actually quite controlled- not what fillyjonk was talking about.

If my kids were driving me mad mad mad and I was furious and they were snatching and fighting and squabbling and being dreadful and I got out of the car and went to the side of the road and gave a good old scream and then got back in the car - then no I wouldn't apologise! It's good for me and good for them.

Like that mum in the ad for some cold remedy - she's in the supermarket and her toddler is about to throw a tantrum so she preempts him and flings herself to the floor with a full on tantrum. She doesn't apologise, kid is just amazed and they toddle off together quite happy. OK so it's an ad but it's what I'm talking about.

If on the other hand I lost it at them (imaginary since I only have one!) then yes I would explain that adults have feelings too and sometimes we all need to give each other a break. If I had upset them I would apologise.

Please don't think I was referring to MonkeyBagGate Malmaman in my post. I too don't think what you did was a big deal and I know for a fact my three children would have thoroughly enjoyed watching me behaving in a similar way!.

LOL at malmaman taking it all out on the monkey haha!

The article was good, but it would have been better for not highlighting the case of the poor excuse for a parent who left her children alone on a 70mph A road. Okay the author didn't exactly condone this, but neither did she condemn it

It is normal, natural to loose it sometimes..and I certainly have, but endangering your children's lives in the process has to be a real low.

I have parents who had vile tempers (abusive), but were not talking about that kind of thing here. What we are talking about is the current trend for parents to "act" with each other and in front of their children. This is <span class="italic">not</span> healthy. Children need to see the real you, warts and all. Part of the job of being a parent is to be true to yourself. If youre a perfect family, the cracks will show eventually. People show anger in all kinds of ways. My MIL is a good example- never raised her voice in her life. Ooh, but shes a snidey, manipulative person, especially with her kids. FIL had an affair, and she didnt bat an eyelid and everyones supposed to act as though it never happened. She only expresses approval/love if her children accomplish something that makes her look good. Compared to my parents, I find her insane and spooky, because shes not a real person and she cant express anger directly (must have been unacceptable to her parents) so it comes out in a million other passive-aggressive ways. But the anger is still there, that much is obvious. Shed have been much better off beating up a toy monkey 30 years ago.

sakura thats a really good post

I think another thing I've been trying to say and am not sure how to is...

Its one thing to lose your temper, make it clear, afterwards, that that was a failing of yours, and that you feel sorry for upsetting anyone. In this scenario you are a human who has lost control, and that DOES happen.

Its QUITE another to take frustrations of YOURS out actually on your kids. So hitting them, or screaming in their faces, or terrifying them by abandoning them on a motorway. I do think that if thats happening with any regularity, rather than being an end-of-tether much regretted one off (which WILL happen), then that is a problem.

One situation is just a case of normal humans sometimes losing control, having been pushed over the edge. The other does indicate that perhaps some better control mechanisms need to be developed. IMO.

Did any of you see the segment on the BBC breakfast news this morning discussing this? I was struck by the fact that the 'experts' said exactly the same things I'd read on this thread yesterday, about the mothers getting out of the car to calm down!

I don't find Enid smug

Anyone who isn't a simpering sycophantic yes-man (woman) is called smug on MN.