I agree with every word of this article about the ideal of parenting

[margoandjerry]

In the times today

except that I wouldn't bother to explain why I was screaming.

sauerkraut, my post wasn't directed at you, it was an appreciation of loveangel's apt turn of phrase!

When I was a child (and to this day) I had to cope with my dad's intense and often frightening outbursts.

As a parent, I have had to recognise that I don't even know how to express anger appropriately. I either flip out or withdraw. I know my DS does not benefit from either of these strategies, even if they are 'human'. My outbursts leave me feeling so ashamed. Again, nobody learns anything from this. I don't think DS is learning anything, except 'I am frightened' and 'This is how people react if things go wrong'.

I have spent the last year really working hard on this because I don't want to repeat the pattern.

Now, if I lose it (which I still do) I try to rationalise it to myself, I don't wallow in guilt or shame, but I never think 'this is a good way to teach my son about emotions and anger'. It is a loss of control and that is all.

To illustrate Enid's point

So it does appear to be about frequency of outbursts. Rare to very occasional is human, often or continually is a real problem that needs addressing.

I don't think it's just about frequency

I think McN's point about anaylsing it and moving on is important. And also, taking responsiblity for it and not blaming your children for your loss of control. I remember my father saying things like "look what you made me do".

MargoandJerry, spot on. Likewise, I don't mind my children witnessing DH and I arguing (of course as long as it's non-abusive and doesn't involve any bad language!). I think It's important for children to see that adults can get upset with one and another, resolve an issue and be friends again. Whenever I have lost my temper with my children, I always give tham ea clear explanation afterwards and an apology. My children are all very robust and have big personalities, me having a tanty is certainly not going to scare them.

Yes, that's a totally different thing if the tantrumee as it were can't take responsibility for their own actions. Think that is another issue entirely and I dont put myself in that category at all, for the record.

OK I can see a distinction here. My father used to lose it and so did my mother from time to time.

Difference - my mother loved us and was always, always there for us. Not so with my dad. He let us down and put himself first.

So I conclude it's not the losing it that's the problem - it's the background parenting - and that's what the article was getting at.

chocolatedot - like your explanation too.

See this is what happens in families up and down the land - normal people being good parents and sometimes losing it, sometimes big style.

No biggie.

Yes, I think it's fair to say that when a child experiences a parent being 'out of control' frequently, that is likely to have more of an impact in terms of their ability to express anger appropriately as an adult.

But, I disagree with those people who say that children will benefit from witnessing this kind of 'raw' human emotion. They don't IME and IMO.

Children should experience 'fear' in a safe way, through play and books, or in an accidental way (lost in shops) not because the most important person in their world is screaming irrationally. Nobody learns anything from that.

oh god, i think the reaction to malaman's post is kind of why women don't feel we can just get angry. There IS this great pressure to be a perfect parent and never lose it. Its daft. Kids can learn a lot from seeing that humans lose their tempers, and then apologise.

No its not a good idea to break your kid's toy. well duh. But its not the end of the world. And malaman actually handled it well, she talked to her dd about it, she apologised. So she lost it, and then used it as a way to teach her child that such behaviour wasn't acceptable.

When I was growing up, my dad frequently lost it, like malaman did there, but NEVER NEVER apologised. If he had it would have meant a HUGE amount, because otherwise I felt that I was to blame for really terrifying behaviour

We are human, we recognise out mistakes and work with them. And parenting is the steepest learning curve I have ever dealt with, I have made a lot of mistakes.

A good test I always think is whether your kids are able to laugh at your outbursts after they have happened.

I get a lot of happy giggles from DS1 (5) when I 'act out' what would happen if he did something particularly appalling:

DS1: 'and then I would pull your pants down mummy and we'd see your bum'

Me: 'and I'd have to stand in the Hall and yell'DS1, DS1, I'm going to send you to bed for a WEEK unless you pull my pants up'

DS1 (giggling so hard he's nearly wet himself) 'yeah, like you did when I wouldn't eat my custard...'

Frequency is a good point. I've never been that crazy in front of ds before. I can imagine if it was regular it would be scary, but he wasn't scared at all.

I do possible get angrier than I should, but I always explain to ds in simple language afterwards anyway.

Once when I was angry he said, "Oh you angry thing, be happy!" At which I laughed. I am not one to hold on to anger for the sake of it.

DS doesn't walk on eggshells around me, neither does anyone else. We had to walk on eggshells around my dad cos he was an angry sulker and clung on to his anger and smoldered for much longer than incidents would warrant and for far too many things. So you could say I am not willing to repeat that. My mum would get angry like me, a flash then gone, with a handful of crazy angryness spread over years. That anger never scared me.

My dad loves me and has always been there for me. I grew up in a happy and secure family.

I didn't learn anything from his anger though.

'Losing it' is part of parenting. But saying that it is good for our kids is disingenuous at best.

Round and round and round we go, where we stop, nobody knows.

Agree Gizmo - we can laugh it off now. She says it may just mummy acting crackers.

The thing is I know I'm the best mummy in the world. I know because my dd tells me pretty much every day that I am and as long as she thinks it then I'm happy and I know we have a good open relationship and that's good enough for me. Ok, so the monkeybag isn't here to enjoy it with us but we'll get by....!

Hmm, I don't know if I agree that children don't learn anything from seeing their parents are fallible and can screw up big time and then apologise.

I think I would have learned a lot from having an apology even once from either of my parents.

Is the article about losing it (prob something that will depend on how shouty you are- I'm quite shouty these days- apparently fish oils are good for mood swings- I'm testing them); or is it about feeling utter rage etc towards your children. I have felt rage towards ds1- when he is being extremely difficult, extremely autistic and it's the middle of the night- and I just can't get something through to him because he just doesn;t get it (Like "don;t climb into my bed at 3am and pinch me repeatedly"- I'm ok for the first hour, 2 hours later I'm raging inside- and no its not a simple as put him back in his bed). It makes me feel dirty tbh- to be raging at someone with learning difficulties because of their learning difficulties. I have had to teach myself to try and remove myself mentally from the situation (often not possible to remove physically).

I think rage etc is not good, and if that is common way to feel towards your children (and we've gone through very difficult behavioural patches where it has been regular if not common, to feel that way towards ds1) but is different from being shouty. If you're raging- you need a break, if at all possible.

Kids learn lots from seeing that parents are fallible and can screw up. They learn alot from parents expressing their anger.

What do they learn from a parent screaming, destroying posessions, 'losing it'?

This isn't about being perfect or feeling 'guilty'. I genuinely don't know what is learnt except fear and confusion.

She learnt nothing really other than don't hassle me with the monkeybag right now - I'm really not in a good place to deal patiently with it. Sorry to be flippant but I think it's been done to death now.

McNoodle, the theory is that when one sees a new/difficult behaviour in a 'safe' context ie from a loved parent, one has a better chance of adjusting to that behaviour and learning not to feel excessive fear when you see anger in others.

I speak as an only child, with loving and kind hearted parents, who hardly ever (in my memory) showed anger to anyone. Consequently I had a great deal of catching up to do in my adolescence and quite painful it was, too.

Sorry malmaman, your earlier posts suggested that you thought your DD had learnt valuable life lessons from MonkeybagGate.

Don't wish to bore you.

Just think you're wrong

Yes but what if the child wasn't scared or confused? My child watched me and told me I was being naughty. I agreed with him afterwards. I am not proud of what I did, i aspire to being a good parent, I work on myself, but I am also a product of my experiences and internal make-up and I am human.

Fair enough...also loving MonkeyBagGate!!

Quite frankly, if I thought my child would be 'scared' by simply seeing me losing my temper and shouting (in the conetxt of being a loving and normally calm parent), I'd be rather concerned as to how they are going to cope in the big wide world.