Parenting without punishment

[pinkliquorice]

In general mumsnet seems quite punishment happy and this approach seems to be heavily criticised.
Just wanted to start a thread for other parents to share their tips and experiences with not punishing.

Anyone else against punishments?
Anyone wanting to try it?

Titty They're too young for it to work very well. They lack the capacity to make themselves understood, and to understand us. Nothing that won't keep though!

I agree there seems to be a lot of semantics going on.

I try to use "natural" (or actually logical, as a PP put it) consequences wherever possible with my 3yo - they seem to be effective and it seems to make it less about me dishing out a 'punishment' and more about 'well that's just how the world works'. These are nearly always consequences that I have engineered rather than true natural consequences - e.g. if he is throwing a toy, I will warn him that he needs to take more care with it or I will put it away. There is a difference between that and taking a toy away explicitly as a sanction for poor behaviour I think.

To be fair I also find a good old fashioned "telling off" can work wonders as well, so I am far from gentle all the way!

I don't like any parenting methods, not even the 'I never punish' type ones or gentle parenting. I think parents should just act naturally otherwise they go against their own instinct and that can lead to all kinds of frustration and unnatural resentments. I wrote something once I'll share with you OP in case it's interesting to anyone. It's on the subject of methods generally:

Formal discipline methods make a mockery of your parenting. As the child's parent the respect between you and the child should be guaranteed and management of behaviour should be in the form of loving correction, done over their whole life to date, leaving them in no doubt who rules the roost. Resorting to formal discipline techniques like those used in classrooms, nurseries and other institutions, undermine your authority and turn parenting into a methodology of rules instead of a nurturing relationship.

Well anyway I wrote that once in my phone notes, I was just thinking about the whole issue. I don't use punishment but I think with your own child it's important to 'reserve the right to' and take each challenge on it's own merit. Anything else pre determined may not fit the situation or make sense at the time.

@Mamabear4180

I very much like what you wrote and completely agree.

I don’t follow a particular parenting strategy, I wouldn’t label myself as a gentle parent but I don’t punish. I had my first child at 16 and it did just feel natural for me not to shout or punish her and it worked, with my other children I have also never felt the need to and do really struggle to understand how it could work.

Yes Mamabear, I would agree with your paragraph. I see it is one long conversation, where the tone changes as you go. One day my DC may have to look after me and I'd like to think that they will treat me with the same respect, I have always tried to show them.

Thank you Pinkliquorice

I think it depends so much on the parent. The most important thing is not so much what you do but how you do it imo. I've seen all kinds of battles between parent and child that I think is often down to parental frustration, environment and unrealistic expectations. When I get frustrated with my kids, I work out what's gone wrong before working out how to fix it. It sounds obvious but I think when people just react in set ways, following set methods that's where the confusion starts.

So take the example of a child snatching a toy from another child. It's ok to have a rule of no snatching but your reaction should be based on the circumstance rather than the rule So snatched because your child had it first and wants it back-you could offer an alternative/distract etc. Snatched because your child just wanted it-you might tell them off etc. It sounds simple but I think these things are really important. On top of that I consider if the environment is right for my child, if there's enough variety of toys (are they bored), are they hungry/tired/poorly etc. 9 times out of 10 they have unmet needs. If you parent with compassion and you aren't stressed out yourself, you're less likely to need other people's methods and a list of sanctions imo.

Thanks Margo

I'm still expecting to get flamed at some point lol

Mamabear I agree with you too.
I realised I didn’t punish when my friends started discussing naughty steps, marble jars and other sanctions. I was actually embarrassed and thought I was probably a lazy parent not bothering to put the effort it takes to deal with a child on the naughty step or invest in marbles.
I was so happy when I can across sites and books that validated my style and I realised that it was fine.
I’m quite laid back (I do have standards for behaviour and do correct) so it suits my style to parent like this.

What about saying 'no'. A lot of the positive gentle parenting seems to avoid using negative words.

I'm trying to formulate my view on this ready for when DD (currently 5 months) starts testing boundaries. I was brought up knowing that no meant no but I have friends who don't say no to their children. I think it's a useful word if used sparingly?

@INeedNewShoes

I dont positive gentle parent, I just dont punish.
I say (never shout) no, stop, naughty, wrong, bad etc because those words are needed to teach and explain to them how they need to behave so I dont have to punish them.

I can’t judge this style of parenting too much as I only know one Mum who does it. However, as a 3 year old her son was left alone in a room with my 4 and 6 year olds while she was in the room next door and I was on the toilet. I came downstairs to a load of commotion because her ds had sat on dd and beat her round the head. She had at least got her ds off dd but the only person who got told off was my ds for not stopping this child. Dd had blood spots round her eyes the next day, which google suggests as a side affect of asphyxiation or extreme crying. Her ds is significantly heavier than my dd and I really believe he could have caused her serious injury if he hadn’t been stopped in time. Dd has epilepsy which I suppose is by the by but if she had had a bad seizure I would have been blaming him. 2 years of no punishment parenting later, this boy is now being home schooled as ‘school doesn’t meet his needs’, ie he won’t stop attacking other children and school won’t tolerate his behaviour, and he’s gone through 5 childminders this year alone because he is violent towards other children and adults. He is generally a lovely boy but I think this style of parenting is not in anyone’s best interests in this particular situation.

I say no too and always explain why.
I think if kids understand why you’re saying no, they will accept it. Even if they don’t like it.
My kids know I’m on their side and there are reasons for ‘no’
I’m not saying It’s perfect and they usually hate being told no but it’s my job to make sure they grow up to be decent people and live decent lives (hopefully!)
As mine are a bit older, I find a bit of education goes a long way.

That's interesting pinkliquorice - personally I strongly prefer to use clear consequences rather than label behaviours as 'bad' or 'naughty'.

natural consequence of hitting his sister would be she is upset and hurt and I am upset and disappointed in him

So you don’t “punish” them but you do tell them you are upset and disappointed with them.

I’m not really sure this is better for them.

@Frusso

You know what no I wouldn’t say that, my 7 year old has also never hit his sister so I haven’t been in that position.
A previous poster questioned what the natural consequence of that scenario would be and that’s it.
I would be upset and disappointed but I don’t think specifically saying that would be helpful in the slightest, that might even be considered emotional punishment.

Very interesting thread. Dumbledore- I get what your saying about the natural consequences of hitting/wrestling saying gentle hands and explaining others won’t want to play if they do this.

However, I think it depends on the child. I tried very hard to do natural consequences with my ds. But no matter how many times I told him to use his gentle hands, play nicely etc he continued and continued. He went through a period of extremely challenging behaviour of throwing, biting, hitting etc. This method certainly did not work. He is extremely strong willed. I then did use punishment a lot and that didn’t work either. For a period neither way worked.

Funnily enough I can recognise where I went wrong with ds and have made a conscience effort to patent my dd in a very different way. But she has been put in her room for consistent hitting before. Funnily enough she is better behaved in general than ds was at the same age. But is this a different parenting approach or the child?

I really liked this approach and always wanted to do it with DS but it became impossible so we do occasionally screen ban or ground for really big things we want to make an impression on. And then more often there will be things which fall in between like the other day he left his homework until the last minute so I made him go to bed earlier the next day to make up for the lost sleep, and we have left occasions early because his behaviour made it impossible/unwise to stay.

These days it is a really rare occasion, and I do always try to use other strategies first. I think we ended up using these kind of "generic punishment" - ie for the sole purpose of being a deterrent/unpleasant enforced consequence - much more between the ages of 3 and 5, since that was when we were getting a lot of really problematic behaviour like violence, and then the need waned. DS is now 9. DH is much more punishment happy than I am. It makes me hugely uncomfortable to the point DH once asked me if I'd had a really traumatic childhood or something. I haven't - I just really hate conflict and I would prefer an issue to be over and done with, but that does mean that I have a tendency to ignore issues until it becomes too late and somehow assume that the person/child will change their behaviour just magically, which I've come to admit does not really work (except for some childish stuff which they grow out of.)

Looking back I was absolutely drawn to a no-punishment parenting style/method because it got me off the hook. I think this was a problem. I do agree with a lot of the tenets of no-punishment ideology, I think punishment is extremely limited, it shuts down discussion which means you are less likely to get to the root cause of the behaviour (which is the best chance at fixing it), kids generally experience it as totally unfair, I don't believe that any child has ever thought about their offence during time out/being sent to their room, plus, it takes the issue right back onto what personally affects the child rather than getting them to consider how their actions affect other people.

Also something I learned over many years parenting is that just because somebody does use generic punishment or finds it useful, it doesn't mean they are using it over every little thing or constantly threatening it or that they never use any other behaviour management techniques! Yes, some people believe very strongly that there should be a positive/negative consequence to everything, but there are also lots and lots of people who have a more relaxed parenting style and save punishment for really rare occasions when they need to add something extra or don't know what else to do.

Lastly, I've come to understand as well that even though it's a blunt tool, sometimes that works as a shortcut, and shortcuts are really fine. Any parent who never uses shortcuts is lying or spending FAR too much time and energy on their children! Can you honestly say that you've never used any kind of preprepared food, driven when you could have walked, googled something instead of working it out together, told a white lie to distract your child or convince them to do something, let them watch TV just so they will leave you alone for five minutes, used a baby holding device? You might not have done all of them but you've almost definitely used some. And I think punishment belongs in this category too. It is normally more effective to talk/problem solve/work on longer term solutions, but sometimes you don't have the time or energy and you can motivate them in a more surface way. As part of a generally communicative and respectful relationship I don't think it's as terrible as I used to think at all.

Out of interest how do those of you who go for 'natural consequences' deal with school?

Genuine question beause I've had battles with parents who claim this is their approach and so do all theu can to block school sanctioning etc (end effect is that we move to next level in behaviour policy).

I get people saying 'the natural consequence of you not doing homework is you doj't learn' but aged 14 they don't see it that way.

What would you say the 'natural consequences' are for a child not only hindering their own learning, but preventing others learning?
What would be the 'natural consequence' of harming another student, or staff ir being verbally abusive?

Because I would:
Send the child out ti calm down
Send the child to work in another room
Issue detentions
Speak to them about their actions
Phone home (where often tbose who seem anti punnishment usually blame me for not engaging their child or say it's a personality clash not bad behaviour)
Put a child on report

Then more senior colleagues would:
Isolate the child for set time
Remove social time at break / lunch if they have been proven to be awful to others
SLT detentions
Fixed term exclusions
SLT report

All would come under artificial consequences which is a huge no for aome parents. I'm not saying all parents who do 'natural consequences' are as useless as unsuportive as my examples but generally when we have issues with behaviour it often turns out yhe unsupportive parents are also the people who are very anti-sanction.

I shout at my pair sometimes it's not a punishment just a natural consequence of my exasperation usually. I don't think it's particularly effective but it is a natural consequence. It is in fact quite possible that a calmly and deliberately applied appropriate and proportionate punishment would be more helpful at the time. I can think of a fair few natural consequences that aren't going to be helpful for children. A one size fits all dogma isn't always the solution.

maisy

I would work with the school and accept those rule and sanctions. Part of growing up is learning that the outside world has rules and consequences.

If I felt a specific rule was unnecessarily punitive I’d bring it up, but nothing in your list is something I feel a normal child should be insulted from. The consequences of breaking the clearly set out school rules are what you state. I have no issue with that.

Insulted? Insulated !

That's interesting Anatidae. Thank you.

I've always wondered how it works but haven't been brave enough to start a thread because i didn't want it to turn into 'reasons i don't like rules'.

You give me reassurance that I'm right to think that many parents who do natural consequences at home do support schools.
It's a shame that the very unsupportive ones use a parenting style to justify challenging schools. That's the side we see the most.

Respect for the school environment is really important 👍

I don’t follow any kind of ‘method’ though - it’s just me muddling along doing stuff the way feels right for us. Right now that’s more a natural consequences kind of thing.

I personally think that schools should have a simple, fair set of rules and simple, fair, effective consequence for breaking them. And that parents should support that.

Thinking through the areas I seem to struggle with daily can you give me some examples of natural consequences for the following situations:

• 3 year old refusing to let me get him dressed in the morning for pre school. I end up most mornings threatening to turn the tv off, similar to the wifi example on the first page
• not eating the nice home cooked meal that I've made every evening!! Has to be coaxed into x more mouthfuls which I hate! It's just so tedious and like Groundhog Day. We bribe with pudding. If he didn't eat he will end up asking for food at bedtime and I give him some bread but he would prefer plain bread in the first place so this is no hardship for him

Yes, natural consequences is far too limited because in reality most natural consequences are far too far away to have any hope of even registering in a child/teenager's mind. Most of what we think of as good behaviour involves either empathy, taking another person's feelings/opinions/needs into account, which children can be very good at given the opportunity (but do need to develop these skills, which takes time!) or delayed gratification, the idea of denying yourself something in the short term for a longer term reward which is much more satisfying. The problem with this one is that children simply have not developed very far in this skill - and in fact teens tend to experience a temporary regression in it too, which is why parents often say that their children are lovely towards the end of primary school and then suddenly become challenging again as teens.

Going with the delayed gratification thing - we understand that things like tooth brushing, regular dentist visits and not eating too many sweet things all have a cumulative effect and will result in nice teeth which are easy to clean, fresh breath and not needing to have painful or frightening dental work done. This just simply not on a child's or teenager's radar. You can go on and on until you're blue in the face about cavities and bad breath but unless a tooth is going to cause them pain right now if not brushed, the vague idea of avoiding some dental work in the future just won't compete with the extremely minor victory of using those two minutes otherwise spent toothbrushing for something more fun, or the extremely attractive prospect of eating lots and lots of sweets.

I've developed my understanding of this a lot too because I was diagnosed with ADHD a couple of years ago, and delayed gratification is something which is very difficult for those of us with ADHD.

That said though, it's not a case of natural consequences being the only alternative to punishment and I think this is what a lot of people misunderstand. If you take away punishment, which is supposed to be a fix-it, a cure-all, you're left with a lot of different options which all work for completely different situations and different children and you have to combine them and make them work and be creative and it is hard work. It would be just as difficult to list all non-punitive techniques as it would to list all of the possibly ways children can misbehave.

I have issues when teaching too though - I am a language teacher. I am trained to teach adults who are mainly cooperative, but I've been asked to teach some kids' classes too, for which I have had absolutely no training except for my experience teaching adults and of course as a parent. And goodness, it is really difficult to manage some children's behaviour. Actually I'm somewhat forced to go no-punishment in this environment too because my employer ONLY cares about the reports of parents, so I can't be too harsh on them, I keep being told I'm allowed to send them out to calm down for 5 minutes but in reality I'm never ever backed up on this so it doesn't happen. I can't force them to do boring work because they don't do what I say anyway! So I sometimes end up shouting but mainly to make myself heard or get their attention.

I have to admit that I generally feel like my issue is that I'm not engaging the students enough, and if I could only make the lessons more dynamic and interesting, they wouldn't play up, I'm stuck in the same model of thinking that I shouldn't need to rely on punishment.

That said, if DS had been at school and we'd still been doing the non-punishment thing I wouldn't interfere with the school's methods. Absolutely not. I trust the school to use methods which work for them even if I might not agree. If I really strongly felt it was counter productive then I might explain why and see if they were open to trying something else but I wouldn't then simply hold my hands up and tell them he's their problem - I would have withdrawn him from the school if I thought their approach was making things worse.