Parenting without punishment

[pinkliquorice]

In general mumsnet seems quite punishment happy and this approach seems to be heavily criticised.
Just wanted to start a thread for other parents to share their tips and experiences with not punishing.

Anyone else against punishments?
Anyone wanting to try it?

Mine are 19 and 12, I didn't label my parenting when DD1 was little and just naturally fell into a type of gentle parenting albeit with a firm 'NO' when needed. Children do need to hear that word.

DD2 is completely different from DD1. I have been on several parenting courses in an attempt to find a way that works for her and nothing works. She was recently diagnosed with autism but prior to this, she was just seen as difficult, wilful and naughty. She's not, she's just wired differently. Punishments don't work for her. She doesn't care if you remove something, put her on a naughty step or tell her she can't get online. She is the most stubborn child I have ever met. Instead I have to very persistently talk to her at length about behaviour, what's acceptable etc.

She's such a great kid though, both of my girls are. And they are very happy to come to me with a problem. I have never said NO without a very good reason and have always listened to their points of view on different issues.

I don't think I do punishment. I find the whole punishment/reward thing a bit uncomfortable. But I don't necessarily rely on natural consequences and will certainly intervene where necessary to set boundaries.

Isn't it more about understanding that behaviour is communication and not trying to manipulate a certain response? That's it for me, I think.

So what would resolve the issue, in your opinion @pinkliquorice? Genuinely interested to know how you would deal with a child who was repeatedly hitting its sibling for example after being asked not to, having had it explained to them that it's unkind, etc.

DumbledoresPensieve, what age are you talking about for the hitting thing? I'd want to try and understand why this was happening. One kid doesn't just start hitting their sibling for no reason. I'd be trying to get my head around why. Are they attention seeking, are they bored, are they over-tired, do they need a good run around, or is the other sibling provoking it in some way that I can't easily see. So much would depend on age & circumstance.

@MargoLovebutter just because it's been used as a example of 'naughtiness' previously - a behaviour that needs to be nipped in the bud. No other reason.

@MargoLovebutter sorry, mis/read. Age? In my mind I was thinking under tens. Older than that assuming the child doesn't have additional needs I would be very concerned.

DumbledoresPensieve, I'd use consequences very clearly explained in an age appropriate way. I always gave mine a choice to amend what they were doing. I'd use pretty much the same techniques as I exampled a few posts back for road safety.

@DumbledoresPensieve

I honestly don’t know. If we are talking about a child 5+ who is constantly hitting and hurting others then I would want to know what was going on.
Is the child being bullied? are they stressed? do they have some kind of condition ADHD, autism? Do they have anxiety? Are the being abused? Are they witnessing others hitting? Can they not control their anger? Are they not getting enough attention? Do they not fee loved?
I don’t know but that kind of behaviour is not normal and that child is screaming out to be helped not to be punished. Turning the WiFi off will not resolve the issue, talking to the child, taking them out of school, trip to GP, finding them support will. I have never had to deal with that behaviour but if I did I would be worried and can not see how the naughty step will help.

I think it depends on the child & I have to say that the Op comes across as a bit smug-like my parenting style is better than yours & 'mumsnet is so punishment happy'

I doubt that anyone is happy to punish their dc-we'd all like them to be biddable & talk everything out but realistically that will not work in every situation. I just don't think it's always workable to have natural consequences as there often are none for bad behaviour. Much of it would teach the lesson of 'I can usually do what I like & get away with it'

Are you resolving your issue about your son being rude and snappy though op? He's 7 so no longer a toddler (you mention he's an anxious child but don't mention any other additional needs I don't think?). Was he rude at 6? If so he's 7 now and still rude so is talking it through working? Mine are younger so i can't say for certain what I'd do but if at 7 my dd is rude and talking it through hasn't stopped then rudeness I think I would be tempted tempted punish/sanction in some way. Of course I would try to get to the bottom of the reasons why and mitigate if I could but if she continued to be rude then I think I would punish her for the behaviour.

I agree with others regarding the child hitting it’s siblings. It’s important to know why it’s happening before you deal with it.

@pinkliquorice fair enough, thanks for explaining. I don't disagree that getting to the root cause of behaviour is a positive way to go.

I think the thing I have difficulty getting my head around is the implied notion (and do correct me if I've misinterpreted) is that children are never ever just naughty. Honestly, sometimes I believe they are. I don't think any children are 'bad', but sometimes they'll all have a day here and there where they just wilfully misbehave. Children love boundaries and they love pushing them just as much. Maybe they are tired, or cross/worried about something - fine. Great to talk it through and try to help. By age 6/7/8 etc this still doesn't make it ok to whack your sister/break a toy deliberately or whatever.

Dd 14 has never been punished, I can think of only a handful of times in total that her four adult siblings were as well. I'm blessed with the patience of a saint more than anything else I think but really dd has never done anything that warranted more than a raised eyebrow and of the others a chat seemed to work anyway so nothing more appeared to be needed. The adults have grown up to be law abiding with a good sense of what's right and wrong so their "soft" upbringing doesn't seemed to have led them onto a path of rack and ruin anyway

@InDubiousBattle

Yes I resolve the issue by talking to him. He has anxiety and is extremely shy so is not rude or snappy at school as he barely says a word. Occasionally when he is rude or snappy at home to me or his siblings it is because he is stressed and anxious about something, talking to him about why he is worried and reassuring him works it calms him down, putting him on the naughty step wouldn’t.
Children just like adults can have anxiety, they can be stressed and worried about things which might make them snappy or make them make unthoughtful comments they need someone to talk to and help them, not someone to punish them.

I can understand how your style of parenting may work at home and if home schooling whereby your children spend the majority of their lives in your presence but how would it work in an external environment like main stream education and other social outlets where you are not there and another adult is in charge which is outside of your control? I have heard of and read about gentle parenting but I imagine it depends on the child's personality and their willingness to partake in this style parenting. pinkliquorice How have you raised your children to this point without punishment? I have a very boisterous 2 year old and no matter how I try to warn her to stop doing certain things, she will continue until she gets hurt. I would prefer to have another way of preventing her from getting to that point if I knew how. At present, I have to intervene and threaten to not give her XYZ if she doesn't stop.

BabyDreams, I worked part-time when the DC were little and full-time from when the youngest was about 7 and I was able to do it. DS was a nightmare toddler and I remember clearly thinking that I could either spend the next X years shouting, threatening & punishing or I could find a different way. It wasn't always easy and it involved gritting my teeth through some monumental tantrums, until the DC realised that if I gave a consequence I would ALWAYS carry through.

A natural consequence of being raised with only natural consequences is that when they start school, they are severely told off until they comply. Would have been kinder to teach them at home really. Of course some children are naturally docile and if so you don’t need to punish them because the natural consequence of your sad face and displeasure is enough. Some kids dgaf about your preferences.

@Qvar

I have a 7 and 9 year old in school, no problems they are not naughty. Dd9 isn’t academic and dosnt score well on tests but she isn’t naughty, DS7 is very shy and anxious and the only complaint is that he dosnt put his hand up when he needs help, he’s not naughty.
My 22 year old got through school fine without being punished at home, we had issues in year 6 when she was getting in trouble but it was down to bullying we kept her out of school for the last month of term and sent her to a different senior school and there were no problems.
I parent my children, I teach them to be respectful and how to behave without punishing them, School don’t need to punish them because they aren’t naughty.
If my child was in constant trouble at school I would think school isn’t the right place for them, they either have SeN, are being bullied, are stressed or need to be homeschooled. I wouldn’t let my child stay in school if they were being naughty and were disrupting the teacher and other children’s learning.

Qvar mine all went to school fine the only tricky spot we had was with ds2 and a shouty teacher. Ds had never been shouted at and at seven found it hugely entertaining to see someone lose their rag and so he pressed her buttons a few times to see her roar. He soon got bored of it and settled down to enjoy her shouting at others instead.

What are you basing that on Qvar? Neither of mine have had discipline issues at school and their both in the final years of it now.

@FrancisCrawford

Well the natural consequence of my child throwing one of my possessions and it breaking would be that my possession would be broken, I may be upset if it was done on purpose and I would need to understand why they did it and talk to them about it.
An unatural punishment of throwing and breaking one of my possessions would be to turn the WiFi off or send them to bed 30 minutes early or not take them to the park on Saturday.

yes I think kids can just sometimes be naughty. They don’t always mean to be or don’t always think through the consequences and a kid being naughty isn’t the same dynamic as a teen being violent or cruel, or an adult. They push boundaries. You push back and model behaviour and that’s how they learn.

I dunno. I think for most kids a natural consequences approach is ok. I may change my mind in future as ds gets older and I think there probably are times when a definite punishment is needed when they’re older.

I’m always uneasy when I see people stick to a rigid dogma of parenting, whether it’s BLW or no punish no praise. Every kid and every situation is different and I don’t think sticking to a rigid philosophy is a good idea.

I’m on a mums fb group and sometimes my jaw does just drop when mums come out with ‘I never praise my child’ or ‘we only do BLW and if you give your kid some mashed up carrot you’re damaging their..’

The nonpraise lady was particularly odd. No praise ever. Not ‘praise most for effort not attainment’ literally no praise. For anything. Ever. I thought that was really quite grim.

Oh and in terms of praise, I do praise my children for good behaviour.
But I don’t reward them for good behaviour which I think would be the opposite of punishing them for bad behaviour.
I wouldn’t use you can have a cupcake if you stop arguing anymore than I would use you can’t have s cupcake unless you stop arguing.
I think praise and I guess criticism (or whatever the opposite of praise is) is really helpful, rewards and punishments for good and bad behaviour not so much.