Parenting without punishment

[pinkliquorice]

In general mumsnet seems quite punishment happy and this approach seems to be heavily criticised.
Just wanted to start a thread for other parents to share their tips and experiences with not punishing.

Anyone else against punishments?
Anyone wanting to try it?

pink
You sound quite balanced and more in line with my views.

I don't think children should unquestioningly do everything and I think that adults should (situation and contrxt dependent) add in explanations so they understand.
But I don't think children should get used to adults justifying instructions that they feel any instruction without a reason shpuld be open to 'but why?' And they need to know there are some situations where 'because I say so' is entirely appropriate.

To me there is a big difference between teaching a child ti challenge and identify potentially risky or harmful situations and nurturing little brats who cause no end of issues in school later on (not their fault, poor things).

@MaisyPops

I can only speak as a parent and not a teacher. But I think it is the parents job to teach a child why and not the teachers.
I would never just say no because I said so to my children because I want them to understand why I’m saying no, I want them to respect my decision and I also want to give them the knowledge so they can make the right decision again if I’m not there. To a child just saying because I said so sounds mean and unfair, they will not understand or respect a decision without justification.
In school yes, explanations aren’t required for everything and my children know not to waste teacher time and answer back at school.
By 5 when a child goes to school I hope they have been by their parents taught a basic understanding of right and wrong, they should no that being asked underlining the title etc is an acceptable and reasonable request. What I’m worried about is when a stranger may ask a child to do something inappropriate that despite thinking it is unfair or wrong they will be to scared to challenge it and refuse because they have been taught to just follow adults blinding and not been allowed to challenge or question anything, this is important if we want to prevent abuse.

@MaisyPops

Sorry, I didn’t see your previous post before sending that.
I agree.

You make perfect sense pink.

I agree with you that it is the job of parents to teach what is reasonable and unreasonable and also how/when it is appropriate to challenge.

Eg. I will usually explain to my classes my logic ajd how it helps them learn. E.g. that there's lots of research on homework. Some homeworks are a waste of everyone's time but others are beneficial and thay I will never set a pointless homework. My turn in rate is always 95%+ and is usually 100%.

But i won't indulge silly argumentative requests for justifying basic rules.

Most parents (however thry choose to parent at home) are supportive.
Others dislike any authority and rules and encourage their children to challenge even reaosnable requests under the guise of 'but thry have every right to ask why'.

I'm not really keen on the direction this discussion is going. Calling a parent an abuser for what is a fairly standard idea in parenting terms is frankly ridiculous. It is fine to disagree but I don't think name calling or accusation is helpful.

And while I agree that teaching children to question and think for themselves is valuable, it is a total red herring to assume that children raised in this (or any) way are immune to the attempts of an abuser. Abusers are in general extremely manipulative and persuasive. And it's false to say that any parent wants a little soulless robot who will never question anything ever - unless you're one of those maniac hyper religious families in parts of the US like the Duggars! It's just not realistic, and pretending that somebody who has a different view to you, perhaps believes in a more hierarchical approach is such an extreme version of different isn't helpful because it divides us instead of highlighting our common ground.

This topic can get very emotional because it sometimes feels as though our own values are being challenged but I think it's possible to have a collaborative conversation about it.

I agree bertie.

I've really valued people explaining their approach to me (like Pink) and it's been interesting.

People throwing around ideas of abuse makes any interesting discussion difficult

I just want to add that I was not meaning to suggest any previous posters whose parenting style differs from mine are abusing their children, I definately do not think they are at all. I apologise if anything I said came across like i was suggesting that.

Also @BertieBotts

I completely agree that teaching children to challenge and question ideas does not make them immune to abuse in the slightest, unfortuantly there is nothing we can do to protect are children from that.
That tool and skill when taught to children hopefully may prevent some abuse.

You didn't pink.
Others suggested that saying because i say so makes your child likely to be abused.

I have a lot of respect for anyone calm and conscious enough at all times never to punish or shout but who still has well behaved polite kids.

If DD (4) has a screaming tantrum (once a fortnight if that) I ignore her usually. But she has been asked to sit on the bottom of the stairs a few times. Mainly to help her calm down and stop any stimulation. Can’t remember the last time I had to ask her to sit there.

And I have been very firm with her. I’ve also been angry. I’ve lost my temper. I’m human I have bad days. I always say sorry. The upshot of these “punishments” have been that 80% of the time just an “UH UH!” is enough to stop her in her tracks and warn her. She’s not scared she just knows the consequences and I always follow through (tv off, no treat, no visit to Granny and Grandpa’s.)

But who knows how she’ll test boundaries in future 🤷🏻‍♀️

He is not my equal because he doesn’t have my life experience and knowledge to make informed decision

Damn right

@pipistrell

In any other situation would you really think someone less knowledgeable or with less life experience is any lesser than you.
I get the point but I’m not sure saying our children are not equal to us is the correct terminology.
Why do you think that?

He's not my equal.....one could extend that to others less educated, uneducated, people with learning disabilities, mental illness, those less fortunate, those less useful....the list is endless. Liberalism is founded on the belief that every human is born equal, I rather like that as a starting point.

My eldest had tantrums at 2, it was horrendous. I don't if this would work with other children but by the time I had DC2 I started to make conscious decisions to do things differently. I could see when he was starting to unravel and act before he started to tantrum. I used to pick him up and hug him, talk to him and reassure him that I understood how he was feeling. He never had a full on tantrum. He's now the most emotionally resilient child of the two. It might be worth trying, it may work for others, I have no way of knowing.

I make the decisions in my family for the good of the family.

I have my children's best interests at heart, but they don't have the maturity to make the decisions.

Their opinions do not have the weight that my opinion has.

Not sure what the difficulty with this is

It is just a different viewpoint. Of course children have less life experience and less developed reasoning, judgement, etc skills.

Some people take that as - OK - my children are lower in a hierarchy of my family than me - and perhaps by extension, all children are lower in hierarchy than all adults. Children gain/earn the higher hierarchy position by growing up and acting their age, so it all comes around in time.

That does not mean that people who use a hierarchical model think of their children as being worth less than adults. That isn't implicit in the viewpoint. In fact many people using a hierarchical model place children in quite a high importance, but they still expect them to be respectful/compliant towards adults, because adults are higher on the hierarchy. Therefore, the levels of adults and children are not equal, but it doesn't mean that they are lesser or worth less. It's only in one area which they come lower in the pecking order.

If you do not tend to see relationships in a hierarchical way and you tend to think of children as being individuals of equal status, you'll still most likely recognise that adults (particularly the children's parents) have a guiding and teaching role.

Well said Bertie

@Puppymouse I agree with you & with Bertie. I think ultimately that a prescribed ‘I don’t punish’ is too restrictive. I allow my dc to air any worries/grievances but there’s a reason children can’t vote-they are not ready for that! Which is why when they are given a warning if ‘if you do that then this will happen is actually helpful. For every action, there is a reaction.

I do a combo of hearing, talking & explaining but as someone who works Mon-Fri, its very difficult to have the luxury of talking every little thing out. I’d be interested to know if people who parent this way also work. My dc are very well behaved but the eldest is super sensitive & the slightest thing will set him off, e.g if I say I don’t really like minecraft he will burst into tears. Without trying to compare, I’d say my dc are well above average in the behaviour category but I’m not under the illusion that this is due to my parenting techniques, (although I recognise that it has some influence).

So - again, it's not true that for families who don't punish that they only use one technique (in this case talking it out) to handle discipline/behaviour issues.

TBH I think you would be hard pressed to find any family who has enough time to talk every single tiny issue out every time, even if they SAHP and home educate.

I was never punished as a child, that I remember. I was absolutely expected to do as I was told and to be polite and respectful to adults. My parents were loving and very reasonable, so it worked.

BertieBotts we home educated for several years, and yes we didn't have time to discuss every single issue. I always tried to make use of those times when as a family we were all together to discuss both issues that cropped up and hypothetical scenarios, but also more general topics perhaps tied to news stories or something we were reading. We had a lot of conversations starting with "what if" we might talk about something we heard on the radio and the DC would ask questions and I would ask them what they think or what they would do in that situation. My instructions or aims would be mostly covert, like them I would give an opinion. I listen, they listen and thankfully for me they have adopted a very good ability to think and act rationally. Now as teens they start conversations about drugs, sex, relationships, current affairs...and whilst none of us usually talk from a first person perspective (we are not huggy, warm, fuzzy people) I know they are taking sensible positions on issues effecting themselves and others around them.

It dosnt necessarily take too much time to give your justifications or explanations as to why you are saying no or stop.
It dosnt take me too much time at all and that is because I have always since my DC were little given it to them, I never just so no and have almost never been faced with whines of why or that’s not fair.

I think for us, it was always about imparting a set of values. If this basic ethical framework was imparted along with the freedom to think critically then eventually someone develops the ability of self-censorship. This is what Freud called development of the super-ego. However if the parent is strict and punishing the super-ego may appear to be acting not as guide and backstop to bad behaviour but as a part of the person's psychological apparatus which is guilt inducing, like a mistress that can never be pleased. That can lead to poor mental health.

I too always explain pink but I guess I tend to stop the behaviour with the threat sharper response instantly and then explain my reasoning and rationale afterwards when I’ve got her attention.

Equal is the wrong word perhaps? We are all equal, and everyone’s feelings and voice is listened to in our family.

When we get in the plane, I don’t consider the pilot to be an exalted being on a higher level to me. I am not her inferior. I do however, recognise that I know shit all about flying a plane and so we will all listen to her instructions and do as we are told.

Similar thing with kids. They are equals, in the sense that they not my inferior. At the same time, if kiddo doesn’t want to put his seatbelt on, I’m going to overrule him because that a danger. If he wants to run j to the road, ditto. And if he wants chocolate for every meal he’s not getting it because he doesn’t have the capacity to make a wise choice. At no point do I shout or use force.

This is what I mean about freedom within age appropriate boundaries. On the plane my freedom to do certain things is curtailed because that’s how we fly safely. My son is too little to have total freedom safely - and so I make decisions.

I don’t think of him as not my equal. It’s just that he’s so little he’s all wants and no understanding of need

Do you see why I don't follow a set parenting method? Everyone has different ideas of what that means anyway!

The conversation took a turn for the worst when the goady poster likened a loving parent's logic to an abusers. Teaching children to respect adults isn't leaving them vulnerable to abuse. Children ARE vulnerable to abuse full stop, being any more or less compliant is a bad argument.

As I said Pink children can question adults but that statement would need to be qualified in every situation and every case and as the teacher on here has said, a classroom would descend into chaos.

I think you can over analyse the ins and outs of gentle parenting and weaken the argument for it, it's why in my original comment I said it's better to just parent rather than try and be a particular type of parent.

In answer to the more recent comments, I don't actually explain much to my kids, I don't qualify every request with a reason. Children do have questions sometimes but they also pick up on our anxiety. If I allow a simple instruction to descend into a chaos of explanations and a Q and A session it undermines my authority. I think it's quite easy to tell the difference between a genuine request for reasoning behind a request and an opportunity for a child to stall, bargain and manipulate things. Children who do this aren't looking for a real answer, they're testing their boundaries. It's what kids do.